Fitting former. I suffered so you don't have to!

[cornish_crofter]

Following my recent adventures with the former, I just thought I would give an account of its installation, which has now been successfully completed.

This is my first wetroom installation and Wetdecs has helped me choose which former to use, and has helped heaps with being on the end of the phone for my stupid questions.

After reviewing the three formers that he sells the customer and I decided that the Tilux was the most suitable for this installation. It was to go onto a concrete floor in place of the screed, which would be dug up. The space we had to install it in is some 820mm x 1500 (old downstairs loo). But we decided that we would build a stud wall and face it with aquapanel to shorten the room to 1200 long

We chose the 900x1200 former, placed the order and sent off payment.

Now, we actually received a 1200x 1200 former. According to Wetdecs we would receive this one instead and just have more to cut off, which didn't matter. In fact it made trimming it down easier.

We also received a box containing the gulley, and 10m of tape that I ordered to seal the corners of the room. We didn't go for the tanking kit as the walls are rendered concrete block, with aquapanel at the back. However the tape will do the corners and the join between the two panels of aquapanel. The membrane on the former will mainly look after the horizontal corners.

The former is essentially made from an ultra hard polystirene. Wetdecs will know what the material is actually called. This base has a yellow waterproof membrane glued onto the top, and the collar for the gulley in the centre.

The first stage was to check that everything was complete, which it was. Then I had to go about making sure the former and the hole it was supposed to go in would match. With the former some 400mm too big in one direction and the screed too thin to accomodate the thickness of the former, we were quite a long way from our goal, but we knew we could do it.

Trimming the former to size was the easy part. This was achieved by halving the difference in width and taking that off each side. The method that the instructions suggested was to turn the former up side down and cut the base from underneath with a utility knife, making sure that I didn't damage the waterproof membrane. Then I snapped along the cut and peeled the membrane back just beyond where the break was. It was then necessary to run the utility knife along the resulting crease (in the base, not the membrane) to complete the separation. I ended up with 2 bits of scrap just under 200mm wide. These proved very useful later.

The former is some 45mm thick, whilst the depth of the screed we removed from the area was unusually thin at around 37mm (1.5"). Hence I also had to reduce the height of the concrete underneath it (OUCH!)

Because I had to dig out for the gulley and waste, and in this case I also had to run a 1 1/4/" waste for a basin (other side of new shower area) through this area it seemed sensible to dig out a trench to accomodate these first. As expected I had to dig down to the DPM.

 

[cornish_crofter]

The customer hired me a jack hammer to dig out the concrete trench and to try to reduce the height of the concrete overall. Another builder working on site suggested that I dig out the whole of the affected floor area and relay a thinner concrete slab. However I found that fist digging out the trench then tickling down the height of the rest of the slab by 1/2 to 1" worked well. This meant that I only needed about 40kg of ballast to backfill the trench later.

I managed to gauge the depth achieved by using the former offcuts, checking that these lay below the level of the screed in the rest of the room by enough of a margin to allow for adhesive. Although the resulting finish on the top of the concrete looked like a 3D model of the Welsh Valleys I could tell that the high points were low enough.

The next task was to put two holes in the outside wall below the level of the former and dpc level to run two wastes through. I had decided to join them outside as this proved to be easier and this approach minimises buried joints. to this end I had to hire a core drill and bit (customer paid). Within a couple of hours I had two 50mm holes to accept the wastes and give me room for manovre. I can only assume that trench blocks had been used below dpc, as they were very hard. Even the core drill struggled.

Once I had a clear run for the waste plumbing I then set about cutting and dry fitting the basin waste, with the right connections to allow me to connect the 40mm former waste outside. For this I used solvent weld.

Before I fitted the waste for the former gulley I examined my options with respect to the gulley supplied with the former. The gulley gives you a choice of a side exit or botton exit waste adaptor. The truth is that neither was used because the diameters were all wrong for the standard fittings that I had.

The collar on the gulley was too small to accept 40mm solvent weld. So I had pinned my hopes on using the supplied adaptor to couple to the solvent weld using a compression fitting. Unfortunately the supplied adaptor was just too small to give a satisfactory seal on the compression fitting.

Hence I tried a third option that worked. I managed to fit some 40mm pushfit pipe (slightly smaller OD that solvent weld) straight into the collar of the gulley. It was a tight fit but it provided a perfect seal. The other end went outside and connected to the 40mm solvent weld to the drain via a 40mm compression fit elbow.

This is the one critisism I would have about the former. They are obviously designed for the european market and sold over here, which is fine, but I would urge Tilux to look at providing UK suitable adaptors, which would make life a lot easier.

Once I was happy that the whole drainage arrangement was satisfatory I then solvent welded/tightened all the respective joints and tested it. At this point I could then backfill the trench I had excavated in the slab for the drainage.

 

[cornish_crofter]

The first step before backfilling the drainage trench was to line it with fresh DPM to assist the existing DPM that had suffered inevitable damage during excavation. I also taped around both wastes where they exited the wall in an effort to provide a damp proof layer.

Rather than backfill the whole trench I decided to leave a bit of room for manovre for the gulley and its waste pipe to help locate the gulley in the former when I fitted it. I didn't use the centralising plate that came with the gulley as I had no surface on which to mount it. I wanted the gulley to be able to have some play in all directions.

To this end I used a couple of pieces of scrap aquapanel to shore the concrete away from the gulley and its waste. In addition I set the gulley as accurately as I could to the desired position for the former (central to the area). I confirmed this position by offering the former over the gulley but I didn't press it down to clip it in position.

With the concrete mixed I then gently shovelled it in using a coal shovel, checking the position of the gulley as I went. I continued until the concrete was level with the existing slab. Then I scored it and left it to dry overnight.

The following day was a minor disaster, though my own fault......

 

[cornish_crofter]

Now, the sensible thing to do with an uneven surface that is about to be graced with a former is to screed it level, allow the screed to dry then work with that to install the former.

But I apparently knew better, despite someone working on site who had installed formers before suggesting I go the common sense route. By the time he had suggested it I thought I was already beyond the point of no return. Sadly I could have changed tack at this late stage, though I didn't realise it at the time.

I tried to level the surface out and set the former in in one operation. A word of advice, don't try this at home, or indeed anywhere. People who do it this way are either very experienced (like WetDecs) or completely stupid (like me).

By the way, it didn't work :lol:

After I cleaned everyting up I screeded off the surface using spf upon Wetdec's advice. It takes a while to go off but there is a point at which you can shave it to get a level surface with the back of a trowel, checking it with a level as you go. Up until then it can be like screeding treacle.

That was a long day but I was pleased with the end result.

This morning I was faced with having to lay the former in its final position. To this end I mixed up some SPF and using a 10mm round notch trowel I combed the back of the former, used some lubricant on the rubber seal for the gulley and placed it into position. Unfortunately it became obvious that there was not enough adhesive on the back of the former.

I had omitted adhesive on the now screeded substrate as I thought I would not have the depth, as there was only around 4 to 5mm extra on the depth. It appeared that I was wrong to do this so I them lifted the former out of the way and applied a notched bed of adhesive on the substrate, then offered the former into postion once again.

Again it was obvious that I hadn't got uniform contact. Hence the former came up for a 2nd time to enable me to examine the areas of non contact and take action. I was concious that I was working against the clock as I was using fast setting spf. If I took much longer I would have had to start again :huh2:

Once more I added adhesive and placed the former in position, clicking the waste in place as I went as before. This time I knew I had uniform contact but was concerned about apparent flexing in the former at this stage.

It was at this stage that I took a deep breath and thought about the situation. If I had contact via the adhesive, upon drying the adhesive should set and movement should disappear. This was confirmed by Wetdecs when I phoned to check. I therefore stamped it down into position for the last time, checked the levels and let it set.

Although one corner is out of level with the others, I intend to correct this at the tiling stage. I wasn't going to mess around any longer, despite my temptation to do so, my instincts warned me off.

Within the space of a few hours the former had set solid, and feels just as hard as the concrete screed. I am looking forward to tiling it in the next day or so.

 

[DHTiling]

cheers Hugo....maybe you could compliment this thread with some pics....sort of like a tutorial......plz

 

[wetdec]

Hi Hugo

Its not been an easy one for you though with respect I do think the implication you suffered due to the actual former is a little harsh. On the waste remark your are in fact quite unique as your the only person in 2008 that has had problem with connecting this board as it travels for the UK.

Good blow by blow i would say as Dave says some pics would be cool.


..

 

[cornish_crofter]

Sorry Wetdecs I meant to use the term 'suffered' in gest. I didn't mean to misrepresent the product in any way. It's an excellent product.

My suffering was due to my inexperience (and stupidity)and the fact it was quite a difficult installation in the first place. The former was in no way responsible.

Taking on board that this is set in place using flexible spf adhesive was a bit of a leap of faith for me. But you were 100% right. It set like stone!

I would recommend the former to anyone who is considering putting one in a concrete floor. I would also highly recommend you as a supplier

With regard to the waste connection. I didn't have major problems over it, but it's just an observation that I noted. For anyone connecting a waste that they may need to use push fit pipe straight into the connector as I did. As you said over the phone, solvent weld from a different manufacturer may have fitted fine. I just used what I had.

I would fit a Tilux again, the waste connection didn't put me off. It's just not what I expected.

In addition I would like to repeat my thanks to you for all the help you've given me both via this forum and over the phone.

 

[cornish_crofter]

cheers Hugo....maybe you could compliment this thread with some pics....sort of like a tutorial......plz

Dave

Unfortunately I didn't take any pictures of this installation as I went. It was hard enough stopping myself from cracking up under the strain. :lol:

Next time I'll see what I can do.

I just felt that it would be useful to give my account of a first time fitter, as opposed to just seeing a video/instructions of an expert fitter. This way other first time fitters may understand some of the pitfalls that may lurk in wait.

 

[wetdec]

@ Hugo

Its cool got your answerphone message, just if people dont see the humour it can be taken the wrong way.........

Its good that you have put it right and are happy

cheers

tiler

 

[cornish_crofter]

Cheers Wetdecs

Today I set about cutting the tiles for the former area. I decided that I wasn't going to rush this part of the job as I was not familar with it.

Although I had the Rubi TS 60 plus I found that cutting tiles at the 45° was an issue. TBH it's probably the way I'm using it. I need to consult the manual (if I can find it). Unless any of you could tell me how I should use it. I was ok with the scoring but breaking them was an issue.

Hence my Belle 230 wet cutter was used for most of the cuts, and a tile file was used to edge the cuts as necessary.

The pieces got arranged, then trimmed as necessary to try to give me some sensible grout lines along the diagonals. They were numbered according to a grid I drew up and then removed.

I decided that I would aim to get as much uniformity as I could with the cuts, but I knew it wouldn't be perfect. However I'm to use the dreaded black grout.

I managed to use all parts of each tile except for the first, which I used the Rubi on.

Wetdec, question for you please. I assumed the grate on the gulley has to be just sub flush with the tiles, is this right? Thanks

 

[wetdec]

Wetdec, question for you please. I assumed the grate on the gulley has to be just sub flush with the tiles, is this right? Thanks

yes m8 stainless flush with tiles, raise again ,pack with grout, screw back down,

 

[cornish_crofter]

yes m8 stainless flush with tiles, raise again ,pack with grout, screw back down,

Thanks for the reply.
The problem is that it won't unscrew when the tiles are in place :huh2:

The instructions that came with the unit seem to suggest packing adhesive underneath it (page 3). They also indicate that the tiles should be cut to allow a square with a few mm between the tiles and the square collar. Unscrewing and screwing back down again would be turning a square, and whilst I can see this would work with a round gulley, This square gulley would surely foul the tiles that are laid up to it at you turn it?

 

[cornish_crofter]

Today I managed to tile the former. I still need to grout. Apologies for the poor picture quality, that's what a 1.5MP phone camera does. The posh mobile is broken :huh2:

You can see I've got the grout lines all in etc and they are all close to 4mm.

Both pictures show the waterproof membrane lapping the walls, left, right and rear. You can't see the membrane lapping the screed at the front because they are hidden by the tiles.

The walls inside the wetroom area are to be primed with SBR prior to fixing the tiles. I have used the tape that Wetdecs sent me to do the vertical corners - you can just see on the left of both pictures.

 

[DHTiling]

cheeeeers hugo for the pics......

 

[cornish_crofter]

cheeeeers hugo for the pics......

What do you reckon to the laying etc?

I had to use the wet cutter for the angled cuts, but I only wasted 1 tile, and that's because I tried to use the dry cutter as I explained yesterday.

The top RHS corner of the former was set too low in error, so I had to build up the adhesive for some of the tiles around this area to compensate. Also, to compensate for the tiles being a riven, not smooth surface I steepened the fall a bit.

 

[cornish_crofter]

Just killed this thread :huh2:

HOW :huh2:

Oh well, another one bites the dust:whatchutalkingabout

 

[cornish_crofter]

...and now with the grout....

 

[Rob Z]

Hi CC,

If you'll indulge the American what is the "gulley"?

I watched a video on youtube that showed someone in the UK installing a cool base for a shower, quite different from what we do here, and very interesting to see.

One thing that I noticed on the video was that there was no trap underneath the shower. The drain piece was a complex looking thing that had a lot of parts, so I was wondering if it served the place of a trap and prevented sewer odors back into the house. I'll see if I can find the video again and post it for you guys to see. I'm sure it is something that you all are used to, but for me it was new and interesting to watch.

Edited to add:

This is the thing on Youtube that I watched, a wet-room base made by Wedi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NNrFbq6hNM&feature=related

 

[cornish_crofter]

Rob

The Gulley is where the water drains into the drain.

The gulley in the former I fitted goes in before the former is laid. The trap is integral inside the gulley, and is often formed by a removable water barrier that forces the water to flow down and up again.

The gulley/ trap arrangement in that youtube video is a similar idea but different to the one I fitted.

 

[heatybob]

hi hugo,
just a quick one m8,am i right in thinking that the former comes with the falls built in,and that these falls sort of originate at the gully and rise up to each corner,creating 4 triangles,if this is the case then did you follow these lines as grout lines for the envelope cuts or did you create your own falls using addy.the reason i ask is(an i think i am confusing myself here)if you have trimmed the former off the long edges should not the diagonal lines for the envolope cuts have been on the short edge of the former.i hope you understand wot i mean,not sure i do !!!
Nice job though m8,i wanna do summut like that in the future,

also an open question do you think that more an more people are considering wetrooms,am sure that wet decs can answer that one,as at some point i would like to go into this area more.
again thx cc and well done
Ged

 

[wetdec]

If you need to lop the edges off do so from both sides and it will balance itself.

The 3 sizes 900, 1000 & 1200 are square, if you want say an oblong, hexagonal round wet room base then these can be cut from any of the sizes no broblem.

Wet rooms are increasing in popularity because of the space they allow you and they are easy to keep clea. We are just taking on a screen that will fold back against a wall so its there when you want it but gives much more space when you dont.

hope this is of help

..

 

[cornish_crofter]

Heatybob

To answer your question the former started off as a perfect square. The fall lines all ran from the centre to each corner.

Cutting the tray to a rectangle and keeping the gulley in the centre means that the two edges that have been cut will not be level al the way along. They will dip, run horizontal, then rise again.

I can confirm though, that the falls work well. Each triangle, as you call them, are at the same fall towards the centre. The only difference is that I have steepened the falls slightly to compensate for the riven texture of the tiles that the customer chose.

 

[heatybob]

Heatybob

To answer your question the former started off as a perfect square. The fall lines all ran from the centre to each corner.

Cutting the tray to a rectangle and keeping the gulley in the centre means that the two edges that have been cut will not be level al the way along. They will dip, run horizontal, then rise again.

I can confirm though, that the falls work well. Each triangle, as you call them, are at the same fall towards the centre. The only difference is that I have steepened the falls slightly to compensate for the riven texture of the tiles that the customer chose.

cheers hugo &wetdecs,
i av just realised wot i saw wrong,ive thought you have trimmed the other edges,now my brain is in gear i can see what you have done,i have basically in my head trimmed the wrong two edges and have now got a former same as yours but turned through 90 degrees,
hope that makes sense.

 

[cornish_crofter]

Heatybob

To answer your other question, wet rooms are becoming more popular. People are going for the minimalist look these days and wetrooms lend themselves to this. Also there is no annoying shower tray to trip over when you get into and out of the shower.

This experience was a learning curve but I'm pleased I took it on as I would be more confident doing it the next time.

When the customer took me on, I was honest in that I told him that I hadn't done a wet room before. I'm pleased that I did the work, even though it hasn't all been easy.

 

[cornish_crofter]

cheers hugo &wetdecs,
i av just realised wot i saw wrong,ive thought you have trimmed the other edges,now my brain is in gear i can see what you have done,i have basically in my head trimmed the wrong two edges and have now got a former same as yours but turned through 90 degrees,
hope that makes sense.

1) Start with a perfect square 1200 x 1200
2) Draw lines joining opposite corners to form a 'X' and put a circle in the middle. That is your initial former shape.
3) In my case it needs to be 820mm wide and 1200mm long, not 1200 square, so trim off 380mm/2 = 190mm from two opposite sides, leave the other sides untrimmed.
4) There you have my former.

 

[heatybob]

nice one hugo,i was cutting down the wrong pair of edges(in my mind of course).you have also answered in your last post a Q i didnt ask but thought about asking,ie.about being more confident now re wetrooms and would you go down that route,
thx again ace,take care.
ged

 

[B16JOG]

This is an excellent post. It touches on so many of the issues I have been exploring this forum about. Am now going to read it again! I have now discounted any notion of levelling the wet muck and installing former. Will dig out a bit extra and drop in a deep-fill self-levelling compound first.

 

[Dan]

Just bumping some of the older popular (sometimes not so popular) threads. Probably wont be current discussion these days but I just need to do it. So just ignore the thread if it's not current for you.