Movement & Expansion Joints

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Im doing alot of new sunrooms coming out of large kitchen diner areas. The new sunrooms have a new screeded floor and i always try and persuade the client to let me put an expansion joint in along the join as i tile the whole thing.
Some say no way it will ruin the look, i point out that cracked grout or worse in a few years will be alot worse!!
Most are happy as long as they are not too visible. I run into problems where they are having a pattern put down and use grey Silicon like grumps.
I use from the schluter range, not cheep but good stuff.
 
Along with this....very useful info...

Where Should Movement Joints Be Fitted?
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The theory is to create "tile fields" large enough to absorb differential movement between the substrate and the ceramic or stone covering -- movement joints must be installed in certain areas and positions to prevent tiles or grout from cracking...and in some cases prevent the tiles from tenting and becoming debonded from the substrate. But the exact positioning of movement joints is vital to them successfully protecting the installation. If they're installed in the wrong place they won't work.
Industry guidelines suggest that the maximum tile field should be no more than ten metres in each direction - but in practice, depending on the individual applications, it tends to be between five and eight metres.
British Standards (BSI) 5385 covers the requirements and methods for movement joint applications. Part 3: 1989-Section 3 - 19.1.1 states that the building designer should assess the magnitude of any stresses and decide where movement joints should be located, having regard to all relevant factors, including the type of flooring, bed and substrate.
While the floor areas to be tiled come in all shapes and sizes there is a general formula for working out where movement joints should be placed.
A circle provides the best configuration for movement joints, because the forces from the centre are equal in each direction. However, in practice, because hardly any floors are circular, it is best to look at square floors and rectangular floors. In a square configuration the ideal field size is where the ratio of the shortest to the longest distance from the centre of the force is approximately 1:1.5 (see figure 1) -- for example 5 x 7.5 metres. Generally, the tile "field" should be kept as square as possible, and where underfloor heating is present, the tile field should not exceed 40 square-metres.


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However, most floors tend to be rectangular, rather than square, though. And rectangular shapes tend not to be the best configuration, as the ratio of the shortest to the longest distances exceeds 1:1.5. In the example shown in figure 2 the crack risk is at the centre of the area. If no movement joint has been installed, cracking of the tiled surface is highly likely. In large floors it is advisable to incorporate movement joints forming bays at no more than 30-metre intervals. Each bay is then sub-divided into smaller bays by stress relieving joints not greater than ten metres apart.
On suspended floors, stress-relieving joints should be inserted where flexing is likely to occur...for instance, over supporting walls or beams. And, as always, joints must be situated directly over any joints in the substrate, and at any changes in the substrate, such as timber to screed.
For areas less than two metres wide perimeter joints are not normally required, unless conditions generate stresses which are likely to become extreme, for example temperature changes.
 
I use between wood, screed and door thresholds. When doing printed concrete many moons ago cracking was a nightmare even when putting in controlled joints. The worst area for movement was the corners of a building, So when tiling if there is an L shape room I try and put a control joint from the corner. It's convincing the customer they need them thru there brick patterned travertine

I use schluter, a local independant will order them for me
 
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If a customer is uncertain about having expansion joints I show them two peaces of a4 paper exactly on top of each other then push one peace forwards by 5mm it lifts of in the centre by 20mm that normally makes them understand the need for them. :thumbsup:
 
I only ever used an expansion joint once on a recent job and placed one every 5m. What i did was replace grout with matching Silicon. 5mm joint
 
Also, just because there is not an expansion joint in the screed, this doesn't mean you won't need one in the tile field.
If a tile area is large enough, it will have enough thermal expansion and contraction of its own to cause tiles to de-bond.
 
Today I think there are more and more failures because not only are there new screeds involved, areas being tiled are larger than years ago add large format tiles to the equation and I think you are asking for trouble.

I used to talk people into Ditra and was knocked for it by other fixers because they felt I was pushing the installation cost up for the client. In truth it was belt and braces everytime, just like tanking IMO. Be safe rather than sorry.

Kev
 
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you will see here the schluter aksn movement joints are every 5mm .plan before hand and tell the contractor to saw cut the slab to accomodate the tile grid.easy to work out dont forget your joints and the expansion itself
 
how do the spaniards/greeks manage without expansion joints ?? quality hotel i was staying in tenerife last year had 100,s of m2 of large format marble everywhere , virtually tight jointed and not an expansion joint anywhere, the floors were perfect no cracks or lifting at all . you think with the heat there would be a lot of expanding and contractions , same scenario at a greek airport i was at this year, do they know something we dont??
 

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