being sued by customer

[Unregistered]

Hi
Im a tiler / bathroom fitter and have been for the past 5 yrs.
I did a job for a woman, fully fitted bathroom suite and wall and floor tiling. As she was happy with the work, she asked me to also tile her kitchen floor.

before i started any tiling on the bathroom or kitchen floor, which were both softwood tongue and groove in very good condition as it was a newish house, i advised the customer that she would require the use of hardibacker style preperation. As the cost to her would have been in the region of 300 pounds extra for supply and labour, she asked if there was any other way round it. As the floorboards seemed very secure and no movement visable, i told her i could supply her with some flexible adhesive which was designed to go straight onto the floorboards (as it said on the instructin label). I did however advise her that i could not guaruntee it against movement in the future. She opted for theis option as it was cheaper. The obvious mistake that i made was not to put this in writing and get her to sign it before i did the work!!

A couple of months later she text me to tell me the grout had started to crack in both the kitchen (quite a bit) and a very small area of the bathroom. I text her back and told her i had advised her ths may happen and i was accepting no responsibility. I heard no more about it until today, some three months later than her text, by way of a county court summons for the value of 1900 pounds for new tiles and labour to relay them.

I am obviousy going to vigorously defend this claim, however wondered if anyone could offer any additional advise.

Thanking you in advance

Paul B

 

[Gazzer]

Welcome Paul.
Always a tricky one to sort out this but
It seems she gave you the option to put the job right and you declined.
She has done right.
You knew that it wasnt the correct way to do the job but still went ahead and did it.
You have done wrong.
As a professional tiler its down to you to say how to do a job, not the customer. Even if this mean you losing the job. Let someone else have the hassle.
I feel you can have your day in court but its your word against the customers. If you say in court what you have said here i feel you will lose.
Sorry to seem so harsh !

 

[david campbell]

you don't really have a leg to stand on mate,if you don't have it in writing then it's your word against hers,to be honest i would personally have told her to do it properly or you wouldn't be doing it all,your reputation is on the line and if she starts bad mouthing you then the cost is astronomical in the amount of jobs you could lose to this
the women is a chancer but she obviously knows she has a good chance of winning it in court,your best bet is to go back and fix it free of charge,hard pill to swallow but long term it will save your reputation!

good luck m8!

 

[doug boardley]

sorry to hear of your dilemma, but if you had doubts about doing the job straight onto T&G, why on earrth did you go ahead with it?

 

[Unregistered]

Thanks for your replies.

just one question, the adhesive used stated on the label it was suitable for direct use onto softwood tongue and groove. If this has failed but was designed for this purpose, how can i be at fault??

 

[diamondtiling]

Some replies on here will say that you should have walked away and not taken the work on, hindsight is a valuable asset that no-one has. You explained to this customer your worries? do you have witnesses? can anyone back up your version of events?,
How much will this cost to repair? You should go and see the customer in question and have a rational conversation about the problem. It would be an extremely hard faced customer to say that you had not warned them of what may happen by cutting corners, equally if you are met by the customer blaming you and saying that they were not told of your concerns then at least you know that they are trying it on.
For the record, if the next job you go to does not feel right because the customer is trying to cut corners then just politely walk away.

 

[grumpygrouter]

Thanks for your replies.

just one question, the adhesive used stated on the label it was suitable for direct use onto softwood tongue and groove. If this has failed but was designed for this purpose, how can i be at fault??

Not sure of the adhesive you used as you haven't given names but sure as shooting somewhere in the trechnical data sheet for it's use, it will stipulate that floor should be adequately strong and deflection free when using the stuff. As the grout is cracking and the tiles are still stuck to the timber ok, it will be movement in the floor that is causing the cracking, not failure of the adhesive for a guess.

 

[Rad2474]

Thanks for your replies.

just one question, the adhesive used stated on the label it was suitable for direct use onto softwood tongue and groove. If this has failed but was designed for this purpose, how can i be at fault??

It would be suitable for t+g without out movement although you said there was none there must have been some,even if only slight.It's and unfortunate thing for you but like the others have said it's up to you to tell the customer what needs doing to do the job right.

 

[Ajax123]

Whilst this sounds harsh I don't think you stand much chance of defending this claim as the customer has done right and it appears that you have not. As a supplier of a specialist product or service you are deemed to be the expert and as such you should not have carried out the installation knowing it was not going to be reasonably durable. Even though you told her that it might happen you cannot in law waiver your duty of care to carry out the work in an expert and suitable manner. My advice would be to try and reach a settlement with her as cheaply as possible. It may be that this figure is £1900 or you may be able to negotiate a reduction but it would be better to settle it out of court as I fear you will lose the battle in court and you don't want that to reflect in things like your credit rating (CCJ's and all that) - especially at this moment in time when work is hard enough as it is. Chalk it up to experience and stick with the hardibacker next time. If they are too tight to pay proper money for a proper job then don't work for them.

 

[UKTT Darren]

As Said
You have no chance as you as the tradesman should have known that the job would fail, so you shouldnt have done it, big lesson learned here, never use that crap adhesive straight onto t and g, always ply or hardi it out, go around and get the old grout out and put some new ultra flex grout in with more latex added to it or epoxy grout.
Some punters are professional scammers and know the law and what they can get away with, im not saying she is one of them but in future dont give them the chance, do the job correctly all the time, even if she had signed a disclaimer that she said no to the reinforcement of the floor, you would still loose as what you have done was wrong and you should have not done it.
Not the answer your looking for but thats how it goes

 

[Ajax123]

My guess is that as timber shrinks across the grain and it was a new timber floor the timber has shrunk and hence movement has occurred popping the tiles.

 

[DHTiling]

Hi paul...

Please register and we can move this discussion out of the public eye......if you wish to continue...

 

[hillhead]

this is a perfect example of customers looking a cheaper job,i find a lot of this lately and have walked from one last week too! can't be too carefull

 

[Unregistered]

I can hear what your all saying, but surely if a manufacturer of an adhesive is selling it to go directly onto t & g flooring without boarding, knowing that timber can shrink / expand, then how can they get away with selling it for that purpose?? and as i have used it after following their directions, why can i be held responsible. I didnt use something that wasnt designed for the job, it was specifically for direct application.

 

[DHTiling]

Paul...ring the adhesive company and get a test done...your posts need to be approved each time you post..

please register ( free ) and then we can discuss this alot quicker..

Register HERE

 

[Gazzer]

Wood is unpredictable especially T&G.

 

[Paulb43]

Dave, i have registered now, thanks. does this post need moving now????

 

[Gazzer]

Dave will do it for you.

 

[Paulb43]

Sir Ramic, i fully understand that but how can the adhesive manufacturer get away with selling something designed to go on direct when it obviously doent work.
As she didnt want to pay for the boarding, i used this adhesive which was said to be designed for this job. If i had have used something not for the job and was clear on the spec not suitable then i would consider myself responsible, however as this has been seen as a suitable alternative, why is this still my fault???

 

[DHTiling]

Thanks for that paul..i have given you temp access to the tilers arms....i do not want your customer to see this thread...


Right..what brand of adhesive was it..?

 

[DHTiling]

Personally, i think it is bollox for adhesive comps to say for a fixer to tile straight to floor boards....

paul what brand is it..?

 

[Gazzer]

Paul, years ago when adhesive for wood floors 1st came out i met a rep from a well known adhesive company. We chatted about this new adhesive which would change our world.
"But how do we know the floor is strong enough to be able to tile" i asked"
He replied, " take a pint glass and fillit with water to the brim and place it in the middle of the floor, then stand 1 metre away and jump. "

"so if no water spills its ok to tile onto then" i replied

" No, you jump harder" was he answer

Basically the adhesive manufacturer will be making sure you followed every instruction to the letter including making sure you stirred the adhesive clockwise !

 

[Paulb43]

It was bought from a company called Al-Murad. It is an adhesive which has their own label on it however it is manufactured by Everbuild in Leeds.

Just looking at the label now and although it says in one section timber floors should be boarded the next section with a highlighted title of Softwood tongue and groove boarding ays "boards must be screwed (not nailed) down to joists at 300mm centres and surfaces sealed with pva."

The boards were screwed adeqatley and it was primed with pva prior to tiling.

 

[Gazzer]

Ooooh PVA....wheres the Nurofen :mad2:

 

[DHTiling]

PVA....mmmm....

When will these adhesive comps take notice..:mad2:

 

[grumpygrouter]

I can hear what your all saying, but surely if a manufacturer of an adhesive is selling it to go directly onto t & g flooring without boarding, knowing that timber can shrink / expand, then how can they get away with selling it for that purpose?? and as i have used it after following their directions, why can i be held responsible. I didnt use something that wasnt designed for the job, it was specifically for direct application.

I refer to my post earlier in the thread.........

 

[Paulb43]

By the sounds of things you are saying the adhesive comp is advising people incorrectly, i have obviously just followed their instructions. ???? my fault or theirs???

 

[DHTiling]

have a read of this paul and then tell us if you think you were advised right..?


http://www.tilersforums.com/tile-adhesive-grout-prep-forum/2511-p-v-versus-primers.html

 

[grumpygrouter]

By the sounds of things you are saying the adhesive comp is advising people incorrectly, i have obviously just followed their instructions. ???? my fault or theirs???

Did you check out the requirements laid down in the technical data sheet or just follow the instructions on the bag? The instructions on the bag are guidance for the application of the product, the tech data sheet gives more in depth detail about the type of surfaces and prep work. Even BAL with their Fastflex product have certain minimum standards to allow its CORRECT use on floorboards.

 

[Paulb43]

Dave, ive read that post. So pva is a big no no. However at the bottom of the post it says 'So only use PVA before tiling if the adhesive manufacturer specifies it in the instructions' ?? which it did! they are obviously advising incorrectly but it still seems to be me at fault??? SOMEONE SHOOT ME...NOW!