Anhydrite friendly adhesives.

[DHTiling]

Are we being over charged for Gypsum based/friendly adhesives..?


Are we being taken for mugs because they think they have found the magic cure for tiling to Anhydrite screeds etc..?

 

[Ajax123]

The magic is not in the adhesive but the fixers knowledge of the subrpstrate. i can't speak for the adhesive prices as I don't buy it personally as you know.

I guess the crux is whether or not you feel ripped off. If you don't then the price is irrelevant. Just because you can buy other adhesives cheaper does not mean that "special" ones are a rip off. If they do the job better and yo have costed them into the job then you can't claim to be ripped off.

I do think that a lot of tilers especially those who call them selves tilers after a thee day course make a lot of assumptions when they price. I also think that a lot of the training courses lack substance when it comes to substrate knowledge.

I also think that as an industry construction has an on going love affair with Portland cement that is really difficult to break.

 

[DHTiling]

I hear you Alan.. but why charge so much for a product that costs no more to manufacture than a cement based product..


Ok , if any adhesive manufacturers are reading this , then please jump in and enlighten us tilers as to why the ingredients are more costly..?

The knowledge of the screed is not really relevant to the way we are charged for said friendly adhesives ..?

The knowledge for these screeds is common to tilers but what is not common is the reason why we are being ripped off.

 

[Gazzer]

Does anyone know if its the same scenario in other countries where gypsum based adhesives have been around longer ?

 

[Mark S]

I'm with you guys, there should be parity between prices for cement based and 'gypsum friendly' adhesives.
Only the manufacturers can answer the question re the difference in price structure.
I agree with Ajax, the industry has an on going love affair with all things cement based.
The other main reason for the high price is the manufactures recognise there is less risk attached to using gypsum based adhesives, and they seem to charge accordingly.

 

[The D]

I think part of the reason for the extreme pricing is the fact they have to have completely separate facilities to manufacture it. Cross contamination would be disastrous.

 

[DHTiling]

I'm with you guys, there should be parity between prices for cement based and 'gypsum friendly' adhesives.
Only the manufacturers can answer the question re the difference in price structure.
I agree with Ajax, the industry has an on going love affair with all things cement based.
The other main reason for the high price is the manufactures recognise there is less risk attached to using gypsum based adhesives, and they seem to charge accordingly.

So surely that is ripping us off lol ..

 

[DHTiling]

I think part of the reason for the extreme pricing is the fact they have to have completely separate facilities to manufacture it. Cross contamination would be disastrous.

They will be done on the same machines dean ... they clean down between batches..

A different machine for each product would be madness.. lol..

It could just be , that as them being new products they think they are worth a premium price ... so unless tilers speak out then they will not come down..


Hey manufacturers .. i predict a riot :lol: .. or was that a price war... C,mon and help us poor tilers out..

 

[Gazzer]

Or is it because they say the components are more expensive to buy, or that because cement products sell more they can lower prices.

What is the reason for white adhesives being more expensive than grey.

When will Gypfix be available in grey? will that lower the price ?

 

[bugs183]

I wouldn't say we are getting value for money, and neither are the end customer whose floor has been installed.

You can see in the customers face they feel they've not got value for money as promised by the builder or architect, once you've talked them through the procedures of testing, then sanding, the cost of the adhesive, which can be double at least the price of cement based, an example being a 75m2 floor tiled with 600x300 slate. THe adhesive and primer bill was well over £700!!!

 

[DHTiling]

£700 is pure crazy isn't it .. Honest pricing is what is required here...

 

[bugs183]

Yea i couldn't believe it, i got the customer (good friends as well, so i wanted them to know i wasn't overpricing), to buy direct from Creative impressions. Weird stuff to work with until you get used to it!!

 

[Gazzer]

And this is what I have been saying for a while now. The screeds are sold as fast track which sounds great until its down to the tiler to say that the adhesive needed is double the price...lets face it, we as the tilers do not set the adhesive prices.

 

[Ajax123]

Or is it because they say the components are more expensive to buy, or that because cement products sell more they can lower prices.

What is the reason for white adhesives being more expensive than grey.

When will Gypfix be available in grey? will that lower the price ?

that is because white Portland cement is much more expensive to produce than grey cement. It requires different ingredients.

i suspect gypfix won't become asilable in grey as it dozens not use cement it uses naturally white or off white calcium sulphate.

 

[Ajax123]

And this is what I have been saying for a while now. The screeds are sold as fast track which sounds great until its down to the tiler to say that the adhesive needed is double the price...lets face it, we as the tilers do not set the adhesive prices.

the "fast track" sales pitch is very old fashioned and I don't really know many people who use that as their major selling benefit these days although I accept it is one of the benefits of anhydrite. There are many more and probably more tangible benefits than being able to install it quickly especially since the massive penetration of these screeds into the small builder market. It is a bit silly to say the screed can be installed quickly on a 100m2 house. It will still take a day out of the build program as would a sand cement screed. There are much bigger benefits to the client. And don't forget clients do not choose their screed for the benefit of the tiler or the adhesive manufacturer or even the screed supplier, they choose the screed for their own benefit.

In terms of the adhesive price i think there is a supply and demand situation here. If more tilers demanded gypsum friendly adhesives then more manufacturers would make them. Then there would be more competition then the prices would come down.

There is also the question of economy of scale. A major manufacturer making several cement based adhesives will be making them all day and every day. This means their raw material costs are lower due to the buying power they have when buying huge quantities of material. If they decide to make what for them is essentially a "niche product" then they use smaller quantities of the raw materials in that adhesive and consequently cannot exert such an influence over the buying price for the raw materials.

 

[DHTiling]

Even if that is the case Alan , it does not warrant 30 quid + a bag inc vat... no way at all.. Sorry..

 

[bugs183]

The 'fast track' pitch is still being used very heavily to sell these screeds.
As you say Ajax in a small property the speed benefit really is of no benefit, but you hear it being used as a major selling factor by screed suppliers and builders.

 

[Ajax123]

Even if that is the case Alan , it does not warrant 30 quid + a bag inc vat... no way at all.. Sorry..

Fair enough. Just trying to offer some cogent arguments. I agree these types of addys can be expensive compared to "normal" ones. Would be good if some of the addy manufacturers were on here to put their case.

 

[DHTiling]

Fair enough. Just trying to offer some cogent arguments. I agree these types of addys can be expensive compared to "normal" ones. Would be good if some of the addy manufacturers were on here to put their case.

That i deffo agree on .. the whole point of the thread

 

[Lee@emctiles]

Are we being over charged for Gypsum based/friendly adhesives..?


Are we being taken for mugs because they think they have found the magic cure for tiling to Anhydrite screeds etc..?

something is coming out very soon that will hopefully answer your first question Dave. Lips sealed (for now)

watch this space!

 

[Gazzer]

something is coming out very soon that will hopefully answer your first question Dave. Lips sealed (for now)

watch this space!

Intrigued !

 

[Ajax123]

Intrigued !

Me too....

 

[bugs183]

something is coming out very soon that will hopefully answer your first question Dave. Lips sealed (for now)

watch this space!

Is it a return to sand and cement screeds??? arty:

 

[Gazzer]

Is it a return to sand and cement screeds??? arty:

I got one of those to do in the next 2 weeks....blast from the past eh !

 

[bugs183]

It won't feel the same though will it, turning up knowing it will be dry and you can tile it, and being able to sleep at night as you know nothing will go wrong!
Can't you pour water all over it and do it in Green Star?

 

[Gazzer]

It won't feel the same though will it, turning up knowing it will be dry and you can tile it, and being able to sleep at night as you know nothing will go wrong!
Can't you pour water all over it and do it in Green Star?

Well it may not be flat yet but then I aint seen a perfect Anhydrite screed !

 

[Mark@Tilemaster]

I hear you Alan.. but why charge so much for a product that costs no more to manufacture than a cement based product..


Ok , if any adhesive manufacturers are reading this , then please jump in and enlighten us tilers as to why the ingredients are more costly..?

I agree with a lot of the comments that have been said during this discussion and I also agree that gypsum based adhesives do appear to be expensive.

A bit of extra advice from our experiences, we are in the process of developing a gypsum based adhesive:

The main gypsum based raw materials are more expensive that portland cement for us to purchase, so there is definately an increase in the formulation costs over a cement based adhesive.
Our plant is set up for cement based products and so there is extra work/processes required in manufacturing a gypsum based adhesive, we have to allow for this.

As touched on in a previous post, the demand isn't there like cement based adhesives and therefore other manufacturers in my opinion charge a little more due to the lack of competition.

Our gypsum adhesive will be ready in 8 - 12 weeks time, the formulation is ready, the initial tests have gone well, we are simply crossing the t's and dotting the i's. We will be supplying our stockists at competitive prices and as a result tile fixers/contractors will be able to purchase our gypsum adhesive for between £15 - £18 per 20kg unit depending on quantities etc.


In summary, I can understand why fixers are charged more for gypsum adhesives, they do cost more to manufacture.


The reason for the difference in price between grey and white adhesives is as mentioned by Alan due to the purchasing prices of grey and white cement. Grey cement is quarried in the UK, all white cement is imported from places such as Turkey, Denmark and Belgium, hence the purchasing prices are significantly different.