Travertine Vs decoupling membranes.....your opinions.

[peegee tips]

Hi all,

Just wanted to see what people think about using a decoupling membrane with Travertine on concrete floors that aren't heated.

Obviously for piece of mind ( belts & braces ) , but when could you perhaps not use it & when should you definately use it on concrete.

Your thought as ever would be appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[White Room]

Could be depending how old the screed is, a new one could crack due to drying out and an existing would probably be well settled and any cracks would have already appeared.

I have laid trav on older screeds without a membrane

 

[doug boardley]

me too 'Beam

 

[DHTiling]

New floors i tend too but older floors then no.. unless cracked to hell.

 

[david campbell]

jeeeze travertine!!!!!!!
nearly forgot what it's like to lay,it's been ages now and it's my favourite when finished!
better safe than sorry is my opinion so i would tend to try and talk the customer into it!

 

[Aston]

the size/ area of the floor comes into play...if its a fairly large floor and there is no expansion breaks in the concrete and there is evidence of cracks/movement then i would go on the side of caution but other wise i'd say no...

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

Hi all,

Just wanted to see what people think about using a decoupling membrane with Travertine on concrete floors that aren't heated.

Obviously for piece of mind ( belts & braces ) , but when could you perhaps not use it & when should you definately use it on concrete.

Your thought as ever would be appreciated.

Thanks.

do you mean finished concrete, ?
a concrete oversite,?
a screeded finished floor? just out of interest !! its the same ansewr

 

[White Room]

I've been down this road before gooner, a screed is not concrete but it's the way most describe it

 

[Richard Edwards]

I agree with Aston tiling

If the floors a big un - without expandsion joints say 80/100m2 plus or long and thin, I would ensure un coupling membrane. if not and the structure is old and concrete is a few years old and any settling has happened, I would not. Then I would use a extra resin cement based adhesive and add polymer at correct rate for adhesive mix. Ensure reasonable joints and grout with quality - polymer enhanced grout

Richard Edwards
The Quality Tiling Co Ltd
South Wales

 

[peegee tips]

do you mean finished concrete, ?
a concrete oversite,?
a screeded finished floor? just out of interest !! its the same ansewr

Yeah I guess I was refering to a screeded floor mainly, plus floors that have extensions & stuff added to meet the original base.

Sorry for the wrong definition !!

So if you decide against decoupling are you still using a normal flexi adhesive or 2part?

 

[Richard Edwards]

Hi PeeGee Tips

There are two things as far as I can see. One is the expandsion / contraction laterally and the other is the strength of the bond. On travertine I tend to use Nicobonds 'Extra' White especially if it is light in colour and add Polymer additive as Nicobond Enhancer in the mix - Bal do something similar.

The only time I use 2 pack systems is if part of the floor is concrete/screed and part is timber /ply. Then I prefer BalFast Flex or also bagged in bucket 7.5 kg as Butec Tile to Wood - very difficult to work with but excellent for flex / sound proof etc. Clean joint as you go and keep work area/tools/hands and knees clean. As these two pack systems are seriously expensive, I sometimes use them on the timber and overlap by 500mm and switch back to cementous adh. If the extensions are same material as main part, then as long as sound and stable should be ok with Un-coupling membrane.

Not sure if this is the angle you were looking at - hope this helps

 

[amajortiling]

If the customer is willing to pay then use the de-coupler.bettr safe than sorry.Trick is getting them to pay the extra tho.easier said than done.

 

[CJ CERAMICS]

agree with above if the customer will pay then use it.
explain to the customer the benefits etc of using it and the peace of mind they will have ususally sways it.

 

[DHTiling]

If you suspect a floor to have lateral stress on the tiled installation then recommend the membrane... Taking the stress away fromt he tiles is always the best method...just weigh the job up and if this is the best method then go for it..

But it isn't always needed..it is upto the fixer to determine if the substrate is stable enough.

 

[peegee tips]

One of the main reasons I started this thread was because I know that it is possible under certain circumstances to do the job without the membrane, & other times it is imperative.
However you know the score, you decide it needs a membrane at ££££ extra to the customer, only for someone else to come in & convince the customer otherwise, only for you too look like you're on the con, & lose out on the job.....

I know that you can't win them all, this is why I feel the thread could be beneficial & helpful to people who maybe quoting for a membrane when really you could probably get away with it.

I have to admit that I prefer the customer to use it, by explaining the downfalls of not having it, then leaving them to make the final decision. You can be the best salesman in the country, but when you put this extra cost in to the equation, someone will always see an opportunity to undercut you!!

Hence using it & not using it.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Terry Cottar]

There are two issues here. The substrate and the stone and just based on the very nature of travertine and the many varying qualities I personally would use a decoupling membrane in most instances new or old substrate purely because you have less chance of a void if it is laid on Ditra or similar and thus less chance of getting a hole through a void stress point. In other words it is Belt & Braces but one less thing to go wrong

tel

 

[Rich]

If its any help the stone federation have just come out saying that any trav layed onto and substrate must be laid over Ditra (not just any uncoupling membrane). This might be over kill but it might be easier to convince the customer to pay if you tell them this. Also a uncoupling membrain is not a substitute for expansion joints Richard! If the floor was that big you would still need expansion joints every 7-10m with or without uncoupling membrane.