Different Mitre Testing

[rainsco]

hallo,

in my winter holidays i thinked a lot about tony.

i do mitres in most of my jobs.
i have two wet saws in diffrent lengths and weights and i use the light one almost every day because i can drag it out of my car in seconds and use it outdoor or indoor in my self built wet box.



but last year i had two jobs where i can´t use my wet saws. 5th floor and no place for it or the tiles were to long and heavy to handle on the mobile saws.


so last weekend i customized my mobile wet saw for long tiles ( 2.30m) in a mitre-able wet saw. i weld two adjustable supports. now i can mitre 2m tiles or natural stone.

so a little bit about the basic machine: it was my 100cm wet saw from englhard.
for a year i ordered a long railprofile to have a wet saw for difficult 120cm tiles and the 180cm tiles in future.
the machine looks very wild but it cuts very very exactly (i love it) and its very lightweight. i´m a one man service so this is very important for me.



let me say for me its not a problem to make exact mitre´s on granit or marble. and for the normal tiling job it is no problem with this or other machines to cut a 45 or 46 degree edge.
but if you want a perfect 45,00 ° edge on hard porcelain gres it is not easy with wet saws because every diamond blade drifts away. even on the bigger bridge saws.
i talked about this problem with italmont and the say yes its a problem.
with a brand new and perfekt tuned diamond blade it workes but then after time and a few cuts its over.
with a new 45° cutter in the rondomax its ok but then one side outwears faster.




so the result is okay and you can sand it a little bit and use it for tiling. but the result is no 100% perfect 45° edge. i mean 45,0 and no 44 or 46.



so my idea was when i saw the easy bevel mechanism that i use it on the backside of the tile to make mitres. i ordered it from italmont. the advantage of this tool is that the diamond tool lies in horizontal straight position to the material and is used completle on full surface.
the disadvantage of the esay bevel is the cost for the diamond tool. so i convert a customized cheap one on top and in future i don´t need the orginal ones from italmont. its also vacuum braced (K50) diamond and i can mitre more thick materials with it instead of the orginal which is restricted to 10mm bevel. cool!



the profiled backside of the tile is not ideal for the small weels but its not so hard to balance it. i use always vario grinders. i ordered a save shifter and a side watercooling to increase life time of the tool in future. and a 50 diameter diamond grinder for wet use. i write more about it next time.
View attachment 48135


the second plate is the customized one. the first plate is the orginal diamond tool.


so i went zero to the edge. not leave one or half mm i wanted to go as sharp as possilbe. the tile is a atlas concorde 10mm 120x60 porcelain gres. as you see very crisp.


fits perfect in 90°



left one is a star galaxy granite. i cut it 46° with my wet saw and didn´t use the easy bevel. its no needed on natural stone.
middle one is the finished glued porcelain tile. i glued it with akemi akepox 5030 in black. i talked to akemi and its ok for tiles. next day i sanded the bevel.




a close up to the corner. its not perfect but for the first try i think its enough.
i showed the edge two of my customers and no i have to face a big vanity with tiles and this edge and next week i do all the mitred corners on building site in a toilet room. i´m a little bit afraid of it but i think its possible.


so monay its BAU fairy in munich. i want to buy a new wet saw. i have a little connection to kaufmann tools in austria and i will speak to the technican. i have the idea of a 3m mobile lightweight wet saw wich can make perfect mitres in crisp porcelain gres without using external tools. oh no, i spend all my money in tools!!!!!

 

[jonnyc]

Well rainsco this only confirms what I posted about you last night as being the tiler of the year on this forum in my eyes.
Engineering in Deutschland is a highly revered profession .it would be a shame if you left the tiling profession to manufacture tiling tools. I don't know how many guys on this forum know Karl dahm but they are consistently the best in the business for tools and cutters .some of their own cutters look so basic but they do the job.
we in great Britain were also great engineers but this is not appreciated in this country now as it is in yours.

 

[Concrete guy]

I like your style and the modifications to the easy bevel are pretty good.

It's interesting to see you fix the mitres with epoxy glue also - that's something I expect stonemason to do but it never filtered down into the tiling industry here in the UK unless the tilers in question came from a stone background.

Blade deflection is a very real issue as these tiles become larger. It's even more of an issue when trying to mitre something 100cm long and upwards.

There's some good thinking here.

 

[jonnyc]

I don't think hevwould be using epoxy glue on site jobs for wall tiling but I might be wrong.
youre right it is very difficult to get good mitre on long cuts but I think hes done a good job and very inventive

 

[Tony73]

I don't think hevwould be using epoxy glue on site jobs for wall tiling but I might be wrong.
youre right it is very difficult to get good mitre on long cuts but I think hes done a good job and very inventive

I use stone glue on mitred corners some times. (mostly for bath top with bath panels or when i fit large stone/marble slabs)

 

[Tony73]

as long as you think about tony in a good way -tony is happy , rainsco :lol: . And i tooo like your stile, and your work is top classsss

 

[rainsco]

yes, next week i try to make this kind of corners on site in a toilet room. i use the same black tiles in 120x60. i want to use my small wet saw to make the miters raw and the easy bevel to make it perfekt. then i fit the tiles on wall and use a 50ml akepox 2030 to glue the corners. i talked to akemi if its ok and they say 2030 is the best one for it. it works on wet surface too. next day i want to bevel it dry with papers. i take some photos if it works. the story obove was the testing for it.
then i have the idea of making the shampoo niche in future in one part without using silikon in the edges.
mitre corners are still a market niche in germany. even most of the tilers are using rails. but glued edges are the next level for me. for better payed projekts of course.

some tilers i have seen made stair step in this technique. but they buy it ready glued or make it in a masonery with CNC. i don´t se the result live so i can´t decide if the quality is nice and the adhesive joint is unobtrusive.

because of the miters of porcelain gres with big wet saws: i was willing to buy a big emmedue or something equal wet saw for my workshop (budged 15000 euro) but all the sellers told me it is not possible to make perfekt 45° miters durable. (porcelain)
there are a special miter saw called Farnese Cutting Product :: Mitre Saw .. look at the video. thats nice. but it can only do mitres and only 45 +-3 degree. i don´t know if its perfekt for porcelain gres. and its to big. and i earn my money on site so i want all of my tools for site use.

 

[Tony73]

to make it stronger, you can cut small grooves (with angle grinder) in the tile, on back side of mitred tile (when using stone glue)

 

[Concrete guy]

The vacuum brazed cutting head that rainsco had fitting in the easy bevel will leave small grooves due to it's cutting action.

It was one of the bonus side effects of the cutting action of our tool also (I'd like to claim that was by design but it wasn't!).

 

[rainsco]

i was positiv surpriced about the vacuum brazed tool.
you know i was a little bit skeptic in your thread. but it works good with hard porcelain.
so i think your tool works fine but i would take it to improve the miters and not to make it complete on hard porcelain. on natural stone it doesn´t matter.

the easy bevel tool is in K100 and in diffrent other grids available. the customized tool is in K50. i think the best for porcelaingres is something beetween like 60 or 80. the K100 makes supersmooth edges and the advantage of the K50 is the speed and the price.

today i get the diamond tool. i think i try it wet next week.
on all tools it is an advantage to have a various speed grinder. the right speed is important. my K50 is without vibration on faster speed as the K100.

 

[Spud]

Rainsco have you looked at the Raimondi Bull dog its small enough to carry on your van or if you want it to profile really large tiles you could go for the BI bulldog ,The bulldog is a special machine just for edge profiling and mitres which you could set up in your work shop ,I intend doing my mitring on my wet saw but leaving a blunt 2-3mm edge and finishing it off with the new ATS mitre wheel on a variable speed polisher inorder reduce the time it take by hand, really enjoyed reading about how you are dealing with the problem of mitring porcelain and look forward to seeing your work in the coming months

 

[Concrete guy]

^Good idea, cut the bulk off first. I hadn't thought of that.

 

[Tony73]

I allways cut mitred corners on wet saw (d24000) , but when you have some U, E, L shape , this is where ATSDiamond tool will become handy. Some times cut mitre when tile back side up, so as Gary said, leave 2-3mm and finish it off with "mitre mizz" and flex polisher :hurray:. We should get together Gary, and try some cuts with our new tool

 

[rainsco]

Rainsco have you looked at the Raimondi Bull dog its small enough to carry on your van or if you want it to profile really large tiles you could go for the BI bulldog ,The bulldog is a special machine just for edge profiling and mitres which you could set up in your work shop ,I intend doing my mitring on my wet saw but leaving a blunt 2-3mm edge and finishing it off with the new ATS mitre wheel on a variable speed polisher inorder reduce the time it take by hand, really enjoyed reading about how you are dealing with the problem of mitring porcelain and look forward to seeing your work in the coming months

hi gary, a workmate of mine has the bull dog. the problem of this machine is the 45degree grinder. because on the edge the grinder has not very much to do but on the other side it is a very massive removal. so the 5xx euro milling wheel make exakt 45 degree mitres when its new but then after a certain numbers of mitres there is no more exact angle.
i was a few weeks ago at the distributer of this machines for germany and saw the used wheels. there were unilaterally deformed.
the machine needs a straight wheel in 45 degree arrangment in my opinion.

here is another one for heavy use: Ferrari e Cigarini – ceramic plants and equipments for ceramic,porcelaine, marble,bricks,granite,stone,conglomerate,glass and special trims,Maranello,Modena,Italy


today i sanded the first glued mitres. here are a few fotos of the projekt i talked about. look at my machine park for this small toilet room!

the miters are not final sanded. i sanded with C600 but i think i try C800 so the edges get more darker. the glueline is not perfekt but in reality the glueline is relatively unflashy. the edges are nice to touch.

the cad of the room:

 

[rainsco]

I don't know how many guys on this forum know Karl dahm but they are consistently the best in the business for tools and cutters .some of their own cutters look so basic but they do the job..

just want to say something about karl dahm. i not very often buy my tools at karl dahm. he has a good catalouge and sortiment but all is expensive. something of his inventions seems a little bit to strange for me.
@houston
i was this week on the BAU fair in munich and can talk a little bit about wet saws here:

the wet saws called karl dahm supercut are from Englhard Maschinenbau . so the advantage of contacting the producer direktly is he can make special versions or special lengths and so on. he also build the highline wooden dry cutters for karl dahm. i saw his new machine on the BAU Fairand talked to him what he´s planing. he goes not in my direktion but maby he has interesting produkts for someone else in the pipeline. a dry cutter for 3m tiles based on a solid table. the table is also available without the rail. its just a solid table.
then a new light 1,80m wet waw for wet and dry cutting. with an light engine and the option to change the diamond blade with an dry unit. so you can use your wet saw for cutting tiles like on a tile cutter. a special breakage unit is also on board. the machine can also completle fragmented.
for me it is no praktical thing. if i have a site i use big tiles, i need the dry tile cutter and the wet saw. and i never take my wet saw to a site when i just need a dry tile cutter. and i don´t want to convert it with screws on site more often.

i use myself a englhard "meistergold fahrbar" and this is a very solid but also heavy machine. the rail profile is perfekt for wet saws. as you see on the photos i use the 2,50m rail for my custom saw and it is with no flex or something. the machine has a little bit problems about handling. i don´t like the position of the grip and the water sprays alwas on you when you. but quality is realy good for the price. miters can be do by array the table. for fast work with normal formats i like this more. good machine build by an mechanical engeneer not by a tiler.

the kaufmann saws from austria (Kaufmann Göfis ) have a good feature i like very lot. the fence for tiles or stone is not in front and can disguised because of transport or something or flex from 90tie to someting else because of the tiles length. you can clip two ones on the side of the watertub or on the side tables. the machines has a feeling like wooden saws. i think thin stripes can be cut very accurate without flexing the fence. for miters you can fix the tile also better with the side fences. this is a good feature i like. maby i buy a titan saw in 2.50cm length it depends of a few trials this year. i think its a very longlive machine. every part of the machine can be ordered.

here ar pics from italmont ( Italmont Home ). they distribute the raimondi machines ( :: Raimondi Utensili - Home Page :: ). i can´t tell you about this machines but the raimondi produkts i have in use (core drilling machine) are very practical.



i tried the sigma rail cutter. thats a very simple tool. i like it from the feeling more than the raimondi free cut and the suction caps are not really needed. the disadvantage of the sigma is he can not separable. but i like the handling, the massive rail and the easy running slide.



anyone here has got such a mix machine? i think i want to buy one for the shower screeds i have to made or to equal stairs. thats a very light small and simple machine. the engine is saved on bottom and the mix linkage is very massive and easy to clean.


another thing i wanted to buy is a dust killer. something like that:
http://www.werkzeuge-mit-ideen.de/admin/show_image.php?id=17967&height=400&width=400
anyone experience with equipment like this?
the one on the photo is a dry machine with high power. it cleans until 3400 m³/h . my idea was to use this one not only on bathroom renovations ore other renovations . i wanted to use it on site to fix the pipe on the table i grind dry with angle grinder. i produce a lot of dust and i think this machine reduce it very good. but the price is huge!! 2500euro is a really big invest for something i don´t know it it works well.

ah by the way i can´t resist temptation. i want to test it tomorrow.


there are a few points i want to improve it. and if it works well i got the idea of a new selfmade machine. maby i build up a prototype next week.

 

[Spud]

Hi Rainsco I made some video of hand mitres with a 800 long tile using a 115mm grinder with a porcelain blade and 100 buffing disc and will post some more video when I use the m14 mitre wheel ATS made for me to compare the results
if you watch the video I reverse edged the top edge of the tile to give me a straight line to work to as the cut edge was very rough from cutting with a manual tile cutter this also helps with protecting the glazed edge from chipping then just sanded the edge of the tile carefully until I had .5mm edge not sure what the exact angle created is but the mitres look very good fitted except that they open very slight at the centre of the joint where the tile is slightly bowed I will post some pictures of the finished job to show you the results when I get back there later this week [video=youtube;VuSD-AUNUiw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSD-AUNUiw&feature=youtu.be[/video]

 

[Colour Republic]

Only just seen this. Great thread lads!

 

[rainsco]

yes, lets post some photos and videos.

i have done the sanding of the edges today. and then tiled the floor.
i think it will look good after groating and cleaning the tiles.


testet my new flex yesterday. the first tests the rail does not hold so i weld two special clamp i can slide into the original grooves on the backside. so now it fix perfekt.
for site i have a waterpump and tube.
i miter with the flex and the first try´s are difficult but then it gets better and better. i think i customize this saw as much as i can. its nice and mobile.



the next ting i absolutly need is a perfekt table. i want to built one.
i saw one in the festool catalog and i like to have clamps in all areas and built a perfekt mobile center for miter and sawing in no restrikted length.
http://csimg.shopwahl.de/srv/DE/290...id/T/340x340/C/FFFFFF/url/festool-festool.jpg

 

[Concrete guy]

The Flex saws are a great tool, they just didn't think about the design of the rail and didn't allow for any clamping points that allow you to cut from end to end without interruption. I even spoke with Flex about this and suggested some design changes but nothing appears to have happened.

What blade are you using in the Flex rainsco? The standard blade is really for stone only - it doesn't seem to behave very well with porcelain.

 

[rainsco]

the rail has two grooves. in the front groove you can use the clamps when you cut straight, in the second grooves you can use it when you use the miter cut. i make a video. my clamps are very good.
i use the turbo blade from flex. flex has 3 driffrent blades. i think i try a rainforced 150mm blade and i have to customize the waterflow. i need much more water on the blade.

flex has only have to rebuilt the festool saw and make it ready for water and stone use. the flex saw is ok but lot of things can be improved. the platform is not very solid.

 

[Concrete guy]

i was positiv surpriced about the vacuum brazed tool.
you know i was a little bit skeptic in your thread. but it works good with hard porcelain.
so i think your tool works fine but i would take it to improve the miters and not to make it complete on hard porcelain. on natural stone it doesn´t matter.

the easy bevel tool is in K100 and in diffrent other grids available. the customized tool is in K50. i think the best for porcelaingres is something beetween like 60 or 80. the K100 makes supersmooth edges and the advantage of the K50 is the speed and the price.

today i get the diamond tool. i think i try it wet next week.
on all tools it is an advantage to have a various speed grinder. the right speed is important. my K50 is without vibration on faster speed as the K100.

I've been thinking about the grade of diamond used in our tool. When I first came up with this idea I was trying to produce a single tool that would cut the mitre from scratch rather than a set of tools. The idea being I was trying to produce a low cost solution. That's why we produced the item with a 30/45 grit.

However there's absolutely no reason Why I couldn't produce this at 50/60 or 70/80 or even 140/180 grits if there is a market for it.

I had no idea that people went into multiple processes to produce quality mitres. This thread is actually an education. So if you'd like us to make different grades of vacuum brazed cutting head it's quite possible.

 

[Concrete guy]

flex has only have to rebuilt the festool saw and make it ready for water and stone use. the flex saw is ok but lot of things can be improved. the platform is not very solid.

They have redesigned the platform twice already - CSW 4160 was the original saw but the cast platform would fracture. They made this more substantial in the CSW 4161 - but it's already been replaced by a CS60 - All 3 tools outwardly look the same but each one desinged to overcome problems from the previous generation.

I have some blades coming in next month to fit this tool (turbo segmented 170mm) as I have several customers asking for them - The Flex blades are very expensive. But they are good.

 

[stevenflynn]

Where I am, Barcelona! you will only find Rubi. I purchased a DS machine a few years back and quiet satisfied with the result. As always one of my bigger wishes when it comes to these machines is that the cut would be done faster. Guess manufactures will get there someday. If I don't miter the cut then I use some of schuter profiles that certainly provide a good finish.

 

[rainsco]

last job i use only my new flex saw for miters on the toilet wall. i make epoxy glued miters too.

the flex has got a few advantages.. so i can cut and miter in unlimited lengths. the machine does not need very much water. a little bucket and the water pump are enough.
the machine don´t spray alot.
so i think i built me a multi funktional table and we will see if this machine replaces more often my wet saws.

pics from the last job. tomorrow i will sand the miters and i will see how perfekt the miters are.


i render the walls with ardex 950. its nice to work with it.

 

[charlie1]

but if you want a perfect 45,00 ° edge on hard porcelain gres it is not easy with wet saws because every diamond blade drifts away. even on the bigger bridge saws.

Hi rainsco, firstly, i have to say im a big fan of your work!

Why do you think that diamond blades seem to drift on the overhead cutters with porcelain? i have also noticed this. The way i wet cut my stone or porcelain on my dewalt 24000 is to firstly make a very slight pass over the whole cut first (no more than 1mm then do another 4 or 5 passes then do my full plunge cut from one end to the other , takes more time but reduces risk of the blde wandering imo.

 

[Protilers]

In my opinion........you cant get a "perfect" mitre on porcelain with a wetsaw........you cant......you need a specialist machine.....like the one from Ramondi......

failing that a perfect mtire can be achieved via a wetsaw and hand polishing..............my mate ATS Diamond tools is developing a "bit" that can be added to a flex machine (or angle grinder!)....
that has an m8 thread!!!..
that will do a mitre...........perfectly.......in principal...

I dont have one yet to test but I do have a couple of his other bits to check out in the near future........20mm full bullnose and 15mm quarter round.............VIDEO INCOMING!.....

all the best

Lee

 

[charlie1]

In my opinion........you cant get a "perfect" mitre on porcelain with a wetsaw........you cant......you need a specialist machine.....like the one from Ramondi......

failing that a perfect mtire can be achieved via a wetsaw and hand polishing..............my mate ATS Diamond tools is developing a "bit" that can be added to a flex machine (or angle grinder!)....
that has an m8 thread!!!..
that will do a mitre...........perfectly.......in principal...

I dont have one yet to test but I do have a couple of his other bits to check out in the near future........20mm full bullnose and 15mm quarter round.............VIDEO INCOMING!.....

all the best

Lee

Hi Lee, i have had same problem but why do you think it cant be achieved? theoretically, if set at 45 degree then both cuts should make square edge??

 

[Protilers]

Hi Lee, i have had same problem but why do you think it cant be achieved? theoretically, if set at 45 degree then both cuts should make square edge??

because the pressure of the porcelain on the very thin blade....it will wander....ATS supplied us with a blade for bullnosing (it was 20mm thick)......therefore it did not wander.......and it did the job........

A thin blade on a wetsaw will go off course on porcelain........because porcelain is soooooooooo hard!..........IMO

 

[DHTiling]

because the pressure of the porcelain on the very thin blade....it will wander....ATS supplied us with a blade for bullnosing (it was 20mm thick)......therefore it did not wander.......and it did the job........

A thin blade on a wetsaw will go off course on porcelain........because porcelain is soooooooooo hard!..........IMO

Use a Montolit DNA blade...

 

[Protilers]

Use a Montolit DNA blade...

does that blade do a "perfect" mitre on porcelain Dave?.....one you can marble mastic two tiles together and fit as an L shape to a corner in one piece?

because if it does I have to get one......

Lee