1mm joint madness

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P

Pebbs

I know Sean wrote about this last week, and I have my own opinion about this stupidity, that is now in fashion. Its like a epidemic upon us, the clients have all got 1mm mind madness, and its got to be stopped or someone will get hurt. Today I had an idiot surveyor on the phone wanting a toilet fit out with the dirty rotten jointing detail. On fast moving fit out contracts, when your fighting with the plumbers, the last thing you need is this additional headache. With this in mind I have ramped an additional over onto all m2 rates. You have to fight fire with fire.....now pass me the akimi....

Lynn
 
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R

Rob Z

This is one of the things that drives me crazy. The designers and the sales people are pushing 1/16" and even 1/32" joints, and they JUST CAN'T GET IT THROUGH THEIR HEADS that this won't work on tile that has variation in the lengths of the sides.

Even when I show these knuckleheads two or three or four tiles, pulled at random and laid alongside each other, that the tiles are not the same dimension and the variation is more than 1/32" or 1/16", they still just say "but we want tight joints on this installation."

I say "did you not just see what I showed you with the tile we lined up?"

They say "but they're rectified, the manufacturer says so".


:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:


GGRRRRRRR!!
 
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P

Pebbs

Rob Z said:
This is one of the things that drives me crazy. The designers and the sales people are pushing 1/16" and even 1/32" joints, and they JUST CAN'T GET IT THROUGH THEIR HEADS that this won't work on tile that has variation in the lengths of the sides.

Even when I show these knuckleheads two or three or four tiles, pulled at random and laid alongside each other, that the tiles are not the same dimension and the variation is more than 1/32" or 1/16", they still just say "but we want tight joints on this installation."

I say "did you not just see what I showed you with the tile we lined up?"

They say "but they're rectified, the manufacturer says so".


:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:


GGRRRRRRR!!
Click to expand...

Knuckleheads...I love that word, we live in an age where they see it on the tv and want it. When the material is the size its supposed to be, we wont have a problem, but until then...Houston we have a problem!

Lynn
 
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mz30

mz30

TF
Arms
9
513
liverpool
In my honest opinion 1mm joints are only required,when they are required I:E using the stick or eidos etc range from porcelanosa (or similar products).

Using rectified tiles (imho) is a totally diffrent animal,i once had an issue with using rectified tiles and spoke to a reputable suppliers main guy who informed me that rectified tiles in his experience were always fitted without a grout joint.

I have always fixed to a minimum of 2 mm unless as stated above the tiles required a smaller joint.
 
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T

tfs

The problem is that in accordance to British/european standards all tile types have a tolerance with regards to tile widths and lenghts. As a result discrepancies in sizes, curvature and squareness are all very common in many tiles (obviously some more than others)

For this reason I dont thik it is advisable to fix with 1mm joints (exept maybe in the smallest of areas e.g table tops etc)

The other obvious reason would be the possibilty of thermal expansion etc
 
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R

Rob Z

Mosaic Girl said:
Aah, thanks Rob, I'm starting to understand the point...duh, yes makes sense...not an easy with my hand cut mosaics, see?
Click to expand...

G, I love the irregular look of mosaics, stone, and other tile that is made to look rustic, uneven, or anything other than with laser-straight lines and machined joints. My favorite covering is stone or porcelain that looks like it's been in a castle for 500 years or so. I used to install a lot of Casa Dolce, which is this way, but for some reason I don't see it any more in the stores around here.
 
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R

Rob Z

G, the other problem with tight joints comes from the warpage of the face of the tile. Except for stone that is ground flat, all tile has warpage to some extent on the face. Some, in my experience, like Stonepeak and Porcelenosa, are about as flat as one can expect. Others, such as Impronta, look like a Pringles potato chip. And when the designer/showroom/owner says they want tight joints and even better-running bond-it just ain't happening with these tiles without major lippage.

I've had some ridiculous discussions with reps and designers about this issue. I've displayed their tiles with a straightedge across the face, or face-to-face, to show how the corners are warped...and invariably they say either 1. But they're rectified, so I want tight joints :mad2: or 2. a skilled tile setter should be able to handle that.:dizzy2:
 
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C

charlie1

If going down to 1mm joint, I find it benefical to use a darker grout. Reason being the tiles as you know are sometimes warped so if you are seting them brickbond then the corners or the tile will end up at with slight lip compaired with the middle section of the tile next to it, this will cast a shadow if using a lighter grout, however by going to a darker grout, the shadow becomes invisibile to an extent and gives a much nicer finish.
 
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Ken Bruty

Ken Bruty

TF
Arms
18
1,003
Bedford
I've also had this scenario many times, especially with 60 x 30 porcelain tiles, then they want plinth lights fitted :yikes:, which highlights the fact that the lippage is there, I actually find them embarrassing to lay, because there is nothing that can be done to prevent the lippage, so I always talk my customers through this before I even attempt to start fixing.:thumbsup:
 
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C

cornish_crofter

I'm not an experienced tiler by any means but I do have an engineering backround.

The problem with reducing joint sizes is that you don't reduce the tolerences in the tile sizes at the same time.

So, if you start off with a 4mm joint and have 0.25mm tolerence in the tile sizes, you may just see it in the finished job. The tolerence is therefore 1/16th of the joint size.

Go down to 2mm and suddenly you get a tolerence of 1/8th of the joint size.......

....you can see where this is going, can't you ;)

I looked at one tiling job where the customer said that she didn't like the wide joints commonly found on floor tiles. "Fine" I said "I'll use 2mm spacers as opposed to 4mm spacers" I left it at that. I didn't get the job, I think she decided not to retile. She did seem to like the idea though.

With that job it would not have given me a problem as the kitchen wasn't that wide. However with much larger floors you get what we engineers term as 'Tolerence Stack' I guess structural engineers and architects etc also have to take this into account, and may have the same name for it - I don't know.

Tolerence Stack is the effect of adding all the tolerences in an assembly as appropriate to give you an overall tolerence for the whole part/assembly

Imagine a tiled floor 4 metres wide. Lets assume you're using 300x 300. That will give you about 14 joints in that 4 metre span. If each tile is subjected to a .25mm tolerance, then that is about 3.5mm potential error between one column of tiles and the next. I know the tiles are laid progressively and that you'll never see tolerence build up but at 1mm grout joints it is something to consider.
This is where you need to take into account all the tolerences
 
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T

tfs

This is a perfect example of why this is best to avoid!

These tiles were actualy mid range porcelain £20+ sqm

They werent alllike this to be fair but still this demonstrates that even porcelain isnt realy suited to 1mm joints

:yikes:
 

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J

jay

Rob Z said:
This is one of the things that drives me crazy. The designers and the sales people are pushing 1/16" and even 1/32" joints, and they JUST CAN'T GET IT THROUGH THEIR HEADS that this won't work on tile that has variation in the lengths of the sides.
Even when I show these knuckleheads two or three or four tiles, pulled at random and laid alongside each other, that the tiles are not the same dimension and the variation is more than 1/32" or 1/16", they still just say "but we want tight joints on this installation."

not easy
I say "did you not just see what I showed you with the tile we lined up?"
They say "but they're rectified, the manufacturer says so".
:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:
GGRRRRRRR!!
Click to expand...


might help if you explain to them what a rectified tile is (second grade) wouldn't recommend moving to OZ rec tiles 1.5 mm joints the norm
 
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