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Tax Threshold

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cjbombero

Got a mesage from my accountant the other day that the 40% limit has/is being dropped down to about £34,500. Can anybody (probably Grouters) provide any more info on the subject? As I already earn a good wage from the Fire Service it means that pretty much any profit I earn from tiling will be taxed at 40%! Going from earning £104 a day after tax subbying to £78 isn't very appealing.

Not sure what to do with myself now...:huh2:
 
G

grumpygrouter

Got a mesage from my accountant the other day that the 40% limit has/is being dropped down to about £34,500. Can anybody (probably Grouters) provide any more info on the subject? As I already earn a good wage from the Fire Service it means that pretty much any profit I earn from tiling will be taxed at 40%! Going from earning £104 a day after tax subbying to £78 isn't very appealing.

Not sure what to do with myself now...:huh2:
This may be a good case for going Limited and taking dividends instead of a salary. Corporation tax rates a much less than 40% (at present!!).

Seek advice from a good accountant if you are keen on carrying on tiling to earn extra dosh.
 
C

cornish_crofter

Thanks for the good advice grouters, I was considering either that option or turning the business into a partnership so that my other half could absorb some of my profits!

The term 'Arctic Systems' if I have the correct name, comes to mind.

HMRC took this company to court over the partnership arrangement, and lost. Hence they set about re writing the rules, your partner may need to have a real involvement in the business to be legit. Talk to your accountant.

This was the case that HMRC lost

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/practitioners/sba.htm
 
C

cjbombero

i think he means stop knicking full time tilers work and pay your taxes as he is and so therefore so should everyone else

good point badly put


What?!?

This thread has nothing to do with complaining about taxes or full time tilers vs full time tilers. I pay tax and NI on both of my jobs which has never been an issue.

The point is there are different tax options available, presently i'm registered as a sole trader but as Grouters said by becoming a limited company I will avoid falling into the 40% tax band and just pay a lower rate tax on any busines dividens.

I simply started the thread to see if anyone else is in the same boat and how they manage their tax, seems like there are a few too many bitter tilers out there. The suggestion by CBTC that only full time tilers are professional is very narrow minded. I work my *** off on site have all my H&S qualifications, PL insurance etc and the work is expected to be exactly the same as any other tiler :mad2:

cjbombero
 
G

grumpygrouter

What?!?

This thread has nothing to do with complaining about taxes or full time tilers vs full time tilers. I pay tax and NI on both of my jobs which has never been an issue.

The point is there are different tax options available, presently i'm registered as a sole trader but as Grouters said by becoming a limited company I will avoid falling into the 40% tax band and just pay a lower rate tax on any busines dividens.

I simply started the thread to see if anyone else is in the same boat and how they manage their tax, seems like there are a few too many bitter tilers out there. The suggestion by CBTC that only full time tilers are professional is very narrow minded. I work my *** off on site have all my H&S qualifications, PL insurance etc and the work is expected to be exactly the same as any other tiler :mad2:

cjbombero
You carry on doing what you are doing, CJ. There will always be people that have something to pick at in one way or another. You are quite right to try and be more tax efficient. Tax is a necessary evil that we all must contribute, best to contribute as little as possible and there are perfectly legal ways of doing so.
 
C

cornish_crofter

.......As I already earn a good wage from the Fire Service it means that pretty much any profit I earn from tiling will be taxed at 40%! Going from earning £104 a day after tax subbying to £78 isn't very appealing.

Not sure what to do with myself now...:huh2:

Before we all get carried away with who's nicking who's work, lets have another look at the opening post.

I think the clue is in this part of the original post.

CJ was reflecting on the value of working the extra few hours to top up his income. His earnings as a fireman attract 20% tax and he wants to top these up a bit, nothing wrong in that IMO provided his work represents value for money.

He finds that he gets hit for twice as much tax with his top up earnings, so he's wondering if it is really worth flogging himself working an extra few hours each week - it's a damn good arguement IMO.

However, there are ways in becoming much more tax efficient. My first move would be to have a good look at my deductables.

Use of vehicle, if it's the family car or a vehicle he would have anyway then some of those expenses can be offset against tax.
Fuel
Captial depreciation
Tool purchase
Costs of running a business from home (stationery, energy etc)
Costs of providing IT. When I did my course we were told all IT equipment excluding mobile phones, could be written off in full in the first year, this may have changed. In addition, mobile phones line rental and calls, we were told, were put 100% against the business.
....and there are other legitimate deductables.

Go and see an accountant. Too many people in this situation just pay tax on what is actually their gross earnings, they don't fully appreciate how the deductables came in.

Also, consider what you put into your business to start it up. When I set up I put every tool that I had into the business, even those that were worth very little. Each one had a value attached to it. In time I will write a lot off against tax as they get disposed of.

For example, you start with a basic power drill that has a value assigned by you of £40. It may have been the one you used once a year before you started the business, but now you need it all the time, so it goes into the business. That is a start up cost.

Start up costs get recorded as costs for your first year of trading. These are offset against profit, along with all your other deductables.
 
G

grumpygrouter

Cash in hand all the way....
The tax regime in this country is as complicated as it is because of "cash in hand" and other ways of avoidance/evasion. If every potential tax payer paid what they should pay, things could be kept simple and the country would run much better.

Bit of a "pie in the sky" fantasy I know, and it will never happen, but we can "wish" can't we?
 
C

cornish_crofter

I risk getting into an area that I don't know a huge amount about.

One thing that I was told at my small business course is that the investment you put into the business is then drawn out before profit is made, so if you invest 10k in tools, equipment etc, then you draw out 10k in earnings that is capital investment that you have recouped.

THAT IS WHAT I BELIEVE I WAS TOLD, so take that with a pinch of salt please! Others on here may have a different view.

This may exclude large capital items, like vehicles etc where the rules were 40% in the first year then 25% each year after that.

This is why I put a value on anything that I put into the business, including tools, materials etc. Even if I thought I may dispose of it soon after I started up I still put it in. Hence when it is disposed of at £0 and it was put in at £50 (drill etc) then that represents an expenditure of £50 that is offset against profit.

If you think about it, when you spend money on tools or items that don't represent capital (trowles, disposable drill bits etc, cheaper power tools) after you've set up then this represents expenditure, that you can offset against profit.

Furthermore, any expenditure that takes place before you start trading is deemed to have taken place in your first tax year of trading. So, if I start trading on the 1st of January, but buy my tools a week before, that expenditure is included in my first tax return.

Hence, that is why most small businesses don't make a profit in their first year.

Capital items are a little different. Depending on what the item is (vehicle for example) you are (IIRC) allowed 40% write down in the first year you have it, then 25% per year thereafter.

BUT, there is no point in claiming your 40% in the first year of ownership if there is no profit to offset it against. So in that situation you may defer the capital writedown until you have profit to offset it against. But if you only make profit in the year AFTER the purchase, you can only offset 25% of the value, However that is 25% of what it's initial value was.

So:

Option one Van costs £10k

You write down 40% - £4k

Year 2 you write down 25% of the remaining £6k - that's £1500

Year 3 you write down 25% of the remaining £4.5k - and so on.

But if you don't make any profit in year one, what is the point in writing the value of the assed down.

Option two Van costs £10k

You don't write down 40% in year 1 as you've not made any money in that year.

Year 2 you write down 25% of the remaining FULL £10k - that's £2.5k as opposed to £1.5k

Year 3 you write down 25% of the remaining £7.5k - and so on.

So you are writing the assets down in the years that the writedowns are of most benefit to you :grin:

If you dispose of a capital item before it is written down to £1, then it goes out of your business at the price you get for it minus the costs of selling it.

For example, my first van was valued at £800 when I set up the business, but as it suffered a major mechanical fault I sold it for £300, but it cost me £15 to sell it. Hence the £15 was entered as a deductable and the loss I made on it was entered as a capital loss of £500. This is a loss that I had to take that year. If I had kept it I could have written it down when it was tax efficient to do so. So if it suited me to write it down or sell it in year 4 I could have done, provided I still had it. This is why some companies tend to hang onto capital equipment or stock that is seemingly worth nothing - they want to dispose of it and claim the loss when they have the right profit to offset against. In that time they may have taken all, some or none of the write downs they would have been allowed.

On the other hand, a relative who was working for Hanson Aggregates was driving a van that had been written down to £1. The company had claimed all the writedowns it could over the years to offset against their profits, but would have had to declare a profit on it if they had sold it for more.

However, if Hanson decided to scrap it for spares after it failed its last MOT they would only have a profit if they sold some of the bits on. If they stripped it and used the spares to keep other vehicles on the road, then, whilst they would not have any expenditure in lieu of the spares they fitted to those other vehicles, they wouldn't have an income from the internal sale of those spares.

Also, a scrap yard I know keeps his capital equipment for as long as he can to claim the writedowns.

That is my understanding of the system for what it is worth. I don't think it is far removed from the truth, but it is based on information I was given a few years ago.

Hope this helps
 
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grumpygrouter

Interesting post Cornish and you have made a good stab at what is happening in everyday business accounting. Unfortunately, some of what you have said isn't strictly correct. Drawing out your initial capital has nothing whatsoever to do with making profit. The two things are completely different and separate.

Essentially, "Drawings" are what the sole trade business owner takes out of his business as and when he likes. It is, after all, his money. If however, there has been no profit made, the business owner has only so much capital he can "draw" until he becomes in deficit. "Drawings" is more correctly termed as "drawings in lieu of profit". The intention of being in business is to generate profit, nothing more. How this "profit" is used is up to the business owner. He can either "draw" it to live on or he can leave it in the business to fund expansion, or repay any finance that has been incurred.

The capital allowance situation you have mentioned is also essentially correct and a good discription has been made here. A point to note though with regards to claiming allowances when there is no profit made. It can be of benefit, in some circumstances, to claim the first year allowance which is at a higher rate, even though no, or not enough profit has been made to cover the allowances. These allowances are claimed on the tax return and not the annual accounts. If the full FYA of say, 40% (this has changed recently) is claimed and the business has made a loss for tax purposes this loss is carried forward to the following years, being offset against future profits. In this way the higher allowance can be offset against any future tax a little quicker than carrying forward un-used allowances.

Glad to see you have a reasonably good understanding of what is going on. Helps a lot in business, I feel, if you have an idea how the system works.:thumbsup:
 
C

cornish_crofter

Thanks for your reply Grumpy.

I am a little confused over the drawing out of your initial investment. Maybe I need to 'forget' what I believe I was told in the course, and listen again.

I was lead to understand that you would draw out your initial investment from operating surpluses before you could make a profit. I've got an accountant doing my tax return so any mis understanding on my part isn't an issue from that point of view.

One example is with our let properties. We buy the house, which is capital investment, but we spend money doing repairs and bringing it up to rental standard, which doesn't add value to the house itself.

We then claim the cost of those repairs against rental income. I know we do this because we and the accountant are continually looking for ways to offset rental income. In other words that business pays us back for the money we put into it before it produces a profit.

To this end I was under the impression that if I put in £1k into my business to start it up, then I can draw on this provided the business pays this back in operating surplus without actually incurring a profit in the eyes of HMRC.

The reason why I haven't come up against this as yet is because, although I'm making a profit on a year by year basis, up until last year I was carrying forward losses and zeroing the profit. (I'm working part time and have other income).
 

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