Limestone picture framing?

[urban stone]

Hi guys i am new on here but reading to all the responses on here i can see there are an awfull lot of stone fixers and tilers on here with decades of experience, and i would like help and advice to this major problem. I have laid a 30mm limestone floor on to a concrete screed with underfloor heating the stone was not 100% dry when laid but the contractor insisted it was laid even though i advised leaving it to dry for a week in the property. The stone was laid with white flexible stone fix s2 adhesive this was left untouched for a week to dry then sealed twice in two days with lithofin stain stop. I have used this stone before and was worried how pourus it was so grouted 2 m2 at a time so there wasn't any stainage which previously was fine. This time however the stone has horrendous staining were i have just grouted the joints have cleaned with lithofin power clean as i thought grout was trapped in the cappilarys but this hasnt touched it if anything it looks worse a the stone surface is now really clean?! what can i and should i do to try and rectify this and were do i stand if what i have done is correct regarding the buider if this cannot be rectified the stone alone was about £11000 for 35m2?!

any help and advice is much appreciated:mad2:

 

[Ian]

Welcome along to tf. Do you have any pictures please?

 

[urban stone]

hi here is the image of the limestone floor

 

[DHTiling]

Ok you say picture framing...

So is the stone wetting from the grout creating the picture frame effect or is it grout staining at the surface..?

 

[urban stone]

sorry i say picture framing but it resembles that but this occurred after it was grouted and dried back tried cleaning with lithofin power clean after the rep implied it was on the surface in the cappilarys ?

 

[DHTiling]

Ok, how soon after sealing was it grouted.. ?

 

[urban stone]

it was grouted 24 hrs later

 

[DHTiling]

it was grouted 24 hrs later

can i ask how many coats of sealer were applied and what sealer was used, also what grout was used plz.. ?

 

[urban stone]

it was a flexible nicobond jasmine grout and before it was grouted i used the lithofin stain stop sealer which had two coats it was foaming up a lot and was doused in it so i thought it had plenty!

 

[DHTiling]

Ok .. i appreciate your concerns but certain limestones do require sealing to the point of saturation and by this i mean they wil not except any more sealer and this is sealing at the point of drying time between coats and then they cannot be wetted upto 48 to 72 hrs .. so this means they also cannot be grouted as the sealer is not at full protection to prevent staining... BUT this also depends upon the suitability if the grout to be used with moisture sensitive stones.. as you need a fast drying grout to prevent ingress at the edges.


So much to say but this is the basics..

 

[urban stone]

appreciate those points, and it was carried out in the manner with timings and application that i thought was okay? so maybe not? but i have used this limestone before and exactly the same products and time frames werew implemented and i didnt have this kind of stainage is this possible treatable in your view or perhaps is there any possible way to gauge if the stain has sunk deeper into the stone? in your experience how would you know proceed?

 

[DHTiling]

Right.. if it is the grout moisture, then wait 72 hrs ish for it to dry but if you think it is on the capillaries of the surface then you could try a suitable grout/polymer release cleaner for calcium stones..

 

[urban stone]

okay i will try this, really appreciate your input.

 

[DHTiling]

no probs at all , i will say it is hard to say without actually seeing it at face value and how each step was performed but i hope my advice helps.

 

[Pebbs]

I hate to be the doom and gloom merchant around here, but I just re-read something regarding the sealing of this stone. You wrote that the stone was still a little wet when it was laid. You gave it a some time, and grouted and sealed it. If that stone had any moisture in it, where do you think this was going to go after you had sealed it? The fact is it has no where to go, it rises and lies there underneath the surface of the sealer and starts pooling, You now have water trapped underneath the sealer, and it cannot go anywhere. I would have had heaters in to dry it out.

What can you do? strip a section back and get some heat on it to dry it out, cut the joints clean the stone back and regrout and seal. I don't know if this can be salvaged, but you can only try.

Pebbs

 

[jonnyc]

Don't panic just yet.i have had picture framing on limestone literally hundreds of times and have always got rid of it.
the key point is to work out if the staining is moisture ingress or actually grout which has filled in tiny holes on surface.
can you first tell me the name of the limestone and what company it came from

 

[jonnyc]

i have just seen picture of stone on my pc and image much clearer.
looks like moisture staining from water in grout.
you dont say if you sealed stone with mn or eco or w stainstop.
you would be least lilkely to have this problem with mn stainstop but the stone has to be perfectly dry.
the stone looks like cotswold or maybe bathstone or similar all of which are very porous and bath stone being particularly open pored.
i lay quite a bit of both stones usually from artisans of devizes and they are really very porous and usually sopping wet when they are crated straight off the saw.
even in good weather like this using rapid set i would not be surprised if i had to wait two weeks for stone to dry before sealing.
if i use mn stainstop i usually get about 3.5 mts per litre coverage.
even then after leaving over night to cure it is very difficult stone to grout.
on these type of stones i never use a polymer modified grout as it will stick to stone and you will never get it off.
secondly we always grout the whole face of stone because if you do not you will see a wide darker picture frame type stain the width of your squeegee down all the joints.this the grout getting in to tiny pores of stone and you will never get this out.
if you grout the whole face the whole stone gets the pores filled and it is not noticable.
your scenario looks different .
if i use mn stainstop i would not be surprised to get maybe a 15mm picture framing of moisture which has eeked in to edge of stone.
At this point you need to leave the stone for a few days to dry and then scrub with a weak mix of wexa cleaner .
the picture framing miraculously dissapears but it is vital that the stone hasand grout has had time to dry out. if you do it next day you will not get it off.
if i used stainstop eco or w i might expect to see wider picture framing and the stone would be much more difficult to grout.
if you have used stainstop w or eco on stone before it is properly dry it would get even worse picture framing maybe like you have now.
by all means give me call if you want to discuss.
i got really worried first few times. we are going back next to clean picture framing off a lincoln distressed stone from artisans.
artisans always supply a pre grout seler which is water based and stone always picture frames.
we usually cover the stone with breathable building paper whilst kitchen goes in and then come back a few weeks later scrub off staining apply last seal and wax next day.
i would be interested to know what the stone is .
i have never come across a honed stone costing£ 320.00 per sq mt.
artisans aged an distressed 600 x random is about that but much more work goes in to that.

 

[Qwerty]

Sounds like jonny has it sussed. Top man

 

[urban stone]

Thanks for all the advice jonny i have all the advice needed to know tackle the problem, your input is much appreciated. Will post again when been to site next weeks cheers again.

 

[Concrete guy]

For Future reference using Stain Stop MN in two coats in 24 hours is a bit of waste of time.

This is a very simple explanation but it describes how SS MN works.

Stain Stop MN is basically a wax like substance dissolved in thinners. When applied to the stone, the mixture soaks in and the thinners evaoporates, leaving a stone full of wax like substance which acts as an impregnating sealer. Once evaporation has taken place (usually within a few hours) you won't get anymore SS into the stone.

In fact, you should be applying a second coat within 20 minutes of the first cost before it's had time to go off (evaporate) anything done after that is simply a waste of time and money.

If it's a large floor, seal in sections that allows you to do this within the 20 minute time frame.

I used to import a huge amount of limestone (mostly from Portugal) each year and it all behaves differently to sealant depending on porosity, but follow the above and you;ll not go far wrong.

Oh, and more than two coats is a bit of waste of time.

 

[johu]

Thanks for all the advice jonny i have all the advice needed to know tackle the problem, your input is much appreciated. Will post again when been to site next weeks cheers again.

okay i will try this, really appreciate your input.

Hi there, I just wondered if this solution worked for you?

 

[jonnyc]

Hi there, I just wondered if this solution worked for you?

Not sure why you could not get me . Try 07956 556327 again