Slip Rating For Floor Tiles

[Dan]

SLIP RATING FOR FLOOR TILES IN THE UK

Floorslip.co.uk recommnds minimum ptv36 as Ray has said before now. But actually it perhaps should be more than that?

Who else is clued up on this?

 

[peteablard]

I had a nightmare with this last year, client was insisting on a certain type of tile and wouldn't listen about safety aspects. It was on a slope directly off the pavement into a shop, I had to get all this info to show them and eventually convince them to change it otherwise I was walking away.

 

[Dan]

I'd never even heard of the pendulum test until Ray said it. So perhaps something others need to get clued up on the slip rating for floor tiles too.

 

[peteablard]

I've just read the other thread about this and I made that mistake too, went back with all the R ratings then found out that's a waste of time and had to find out all the PTV's

 

[Dan]

Yeah apparently they're quite relaxed with the R rating and tend to over assume the tiles r rating quite a bit.

Pendulum test is the one the trust.

 

[Dan]

And if you're to over engineer a little like everything else in the tiling world (cutter breakers, tile adhesives and grouts, tile sealers etc) then you want PTV38 or PTV 40 ish.

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

well had a tile shop ask me to check a tile speced for a hotel project had R10 rate tested it for them it came out bang on ptv 36 .but other R10 have been as low as ptv 20 so i have no trust in the R rating .

 

[Dan]

ptv 36 1 in a million . to bring things into balance friday night out of a million people 10% get drunk spend the rest of the night falling over thats 100 thousand people .

Sorry I got those the wrong way round didn't I!

You want the 1 in a million or even less.

The 1 in 100,000 is what you don't want. As you say.

 

[Dan]

PTV 51 is in the green. How many millions can walk on it for 1 to slip on that floor?

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

i would say the same number /the higher values are more to deal with floors that will due to work being carried out suffer high contamination every day ie garage work shops .restarant kitchens .

 

[Dan]

Or perhaps bathrooms / wet areas?
How much does a PTV change when a tile is wet?

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Or perhaps bathrooms / wet areas?
How much does a PTV change when a tile is wet?

polished porc will get on avarage ptv 60 70 dry 16 20 wet
on a tile thats wet ptv 36 / dry 48 / on avarage

 

[Dan]

So a massive different when wet for polished porcelain.
Awesome PTV's when dry. Perhaps not so clever for a wet area if as low as PTV16 - 20?

I'm getting into this considering I didn't even hear the term used since last night.

Can't believe we all don't have these values in our minds and mentioned as much as weight limits for tiles etc because it seems just as important and probably the main factor when floors are considered, like a main factor for walls is a weight limit.

Maybe mosaic versions of all the wall tiles should be made for the floors in said bathrooms and customers advised of the ice-rink-style slippage when using polished porcelain tiles on floors?!

 

[Dan]

Just linking these for further reading when I have more time.

PTV, DIN or Tortus: Finding common ground | Contract Flooring Journal

Johnson Tiles — HSE Slip Resistance Guidelines

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/geis2.pdf

 

[andy8758]

The PTV should be considered in relation to the area the tile is placed in. In many instances the PTV in wet conditions should be checked and recommended by the tiler.

I am in the process of choosing and ordering tiles for a butchers floor which is often covered in blood and needs hosing down daily. I find it safest to turn to experts like Dorset Wooliscroft (now part of Original Style family). They give PTV for both wet and dry conditions in their tile brochure - I am recommending the butcher goes for a wet PTV rating of 54, and will specify epoxy grout.

As to whether or not commercial shop traders need anti-slip tiles - well has anyone been into a Debenhams lately? Polished porcelain on the floor, but with matting at the entrance, and additional floor mats placed near the entrance when heavy rain falling outside. As tilers we can recommend and point out the risks of certain types of tile, but the use of the floor is up to the individual in charge of the premises.

So that kinda answers my feelings on the survey. As tilers we need to be informed, advise and make recommendations. I often give a percentage risk of (cracking, tile debonding, slip) of a danger or problem, but let the customer choose what to do. Use of the tiled area becomes their responsibility if we give informed advice. And I don't want to lose too much potential work by telling customers I won't tile if they ignore my advice.

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

have been doing a little testing today on the same range of tiles here s the sort of results you can get

 

[Dan]

have been doing a little testing today on the same range of tiles here s the sort of results you can get

Had to go to my mac then to see them PDF's. Else I'd have replied earlier. This is something I seem to be interested in just lately.

So the Paris C3 passes with flying colours even when wet. But the C1 and C2 seem to be brilliant dry, but below what you'd want in a wet area?

 

[Dan]

The PTV should be considered in relation to the area the tile is placed in. In many instances the PTV in wet conditions should be checked and recommended by the tiler.

I am in the process of choosing and ordering tiles for a butchers floor which is often covered in blood and needs hosing down daily. I find it safest to turn to experts like Dorset Wooliscroft (now part of Original Style family). They give PTV for both wet and dry conditions in their tile brochure - I am recommending the butcher goes for a wet PTV rating of 54, and will specify epoxy grout.

As to whether or not commercial shop traders need anti-slip tiles - well has anyone been into a Debenhams lately? Polished porcelain on the floor, but with matting at the entrance, and additional floor mats placed near the entrance when heavy rain falling outside. As tilers we can recommend and point out the risks of certain types of tile, but the use of the floor is up to the individual in charge of the premises.

So that kinda answers my feelings on the survey. As tilers we need to be informed, advise and make recommendations. I often give a percentage risk of (cracking, tile debonding, slip) of a danger or problem, but let the customer choose what to do. Use of the tiled area becomes their responsibility if we give informed advice. And I don't want to lose too much potential work by telling customers I won't tile if they ignore my advice.

They'll use tiles that meet the PTV even for wet areas, else they'd not get insured to open the shop when it's raining. I'd assume. And they have various other risk assessments going on that stipulate wet floor signs when wet and whatnot.

I'm talking about bathrooms though, and perhaps even more-so, actual wetrooms. Surely if they're always wet, and some have a fall to a drain, you're asking for trouble.

Then if it's an elderly person, who loves her porcelain, wants a wetroom with not much space available, meaning the fall is going to be a degree or two deeper than a large wet room that can have a slight slope, do we start to do a risk assessment in our heads and say no, I'd just rather not? Or take the money and do it?

I'm just thinking out loud here. When I looked for PTV threads or even threads talking about slippy tiles in wet areas, we just don't seem to have much discussion on it. Yet when I look for threads where we're talking about tiling walls with heavy tiles, the next 30 posts in the thread are asking about weight of tiles and warning of the outcome etc etc etc

So it's good that we discuss it, even if at the end we seem to come to a conclusion of considering the risks a bit more, but not turning down work, perhaps just persuading a little better when an old lady hasn't thought about the risk or whatever.

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Had to go to my mac then to see them PDF's. Else I'd have replied earlier. This is something I seem to be interested in just lately.

So the Paris C3 passes with flying colours even when wet. But the C1 and C2 seem to be brilliant dry, but below what you'd want in a wet area?

well it seems as you go darker the ptv seems to increase so tomorrow c4 c 5 see how that goes

 

[Dan]

well it seems as you go darker the ptv seems to increase so tomorrow c4 c 5 see how that goes

Really?!

Good find that mate!

Need to test way more than a few to get it conclusive I guess but that's a start.

Do you have any clue as to why that is? Do darker porcelains have more resins in or something?

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Really?!

Good find that mate!

Need to test way more than a few to get it conclusive I guess but that's a start.

Do you have any clue as to why that is? Do darker porcelains have more resins in or something?

well had a few computer problems saving what we were doing but now fixed .its about the layers of glaze that make the diffrence with over 200 tiles to test will know a lott more as i go along

 

[Dan]

So do you think once you've worked out why, you can increase to PTV for white tiles too?

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

So do you think once you've worked out why, you can increase to PTV for white tiles too?

yes no problem the holy grail is ptv 36 and above that are easy to keep clean the c3 all day long i have changed the finnishes on the same tiles and on some of the tosca ranges
t3 and t5 with great results buts its on going i like to work with people who hear what you say and give it a go .rather than ones that say thats what we do take it or leave it

 

[andy8758]

They'll use tiles that meet the PTV even for wet areas, else they'd not get insured to open the shop when it's raining. I'd assume. And they have various other risk assessments going on that stipulate wet floor signs when wet and whatnot.

I'm talking about bathrooms though, and perhaps even more-so, actual wetrooms. Surely if they're always wet, and some have a fall to a drain, you're asking for trouble.

Then if it's an elderly person, who loves her porcelain, wants a wetroom with not much space available, meaning the fall is going to be a degree or two deeper than a large wet room that can have a slight slope, do we start to do a risk assessment in our heads and say no, I'd just rather not? Or take the money and do it?

I'm just thinking out loud here. When I looked for PTV threads or even threads talking about slippy tiles in wet areas, we just don't seem to have much discussion on it. Yet when I look for threads where we're talking about tiling walls with heavy tiles, the next 30 posts in the thread are asking about weight of tiles and warning of the outcome etc etc etc

So it's good that we discuss it, even if at the end we seem to come to a conclusion of considering the risks a bit more, but not turning down work, perhaps just persuading a little better when an old lady hasn't thought about the risk or whatever.

I agree its a good discussion post, and it at least makes fixers aware of additional risks in installing floor tiles.

I have long considered advice on slip risks for bathrooms. For me a particular point of argument in the past has been with a retailer suggesting that polish is the best slate sealer... for a bathroom floor. Same retailer suggested that unfilled travertine must be sealed before grouting. Another retailer told a customer that mosaic tiles were waterproof. But I don't want to go off topic.

Slip resistance is not something that has been part of my tiling education, but has always a point of common sense when making site visits for preparing quotes. I agree that it should be considered alongside weight restrictions on walls, but I have to say that I have installed tiles over 9mm thick onto plastered walls were I have confidence the plaster has been properly applied - usually after pointing out the risks to a customer who has just paid a plasterer to skim the walls before choosing (e.g.) 10mm limestone tiles. Likewise I will point out the risks of (e.g.) polished porcelain on a bath/shower room floor, but without increasing the risk through any act of my own, I would still do the job if requested.

But I am happy to read others views opposed to mine (lol).

 

[Dan]

Mate, there's only me you and Ray chatting about it so I doubt you'll hear many views lmao

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Mate, there's only me you and Ray chatting about it so I doubt you'll hear many views lmao

many tilers tile blind never question what the rep says but the can at the end of the day you end up holding now every time you speak to a rep or a sales person in a showroom telling you what you need to do .ask one simple question so how many tiles have you fixed ?using this .the penny may drop .in a court of law you are the exspert .but you made the mistake of trying to blame some with out know how that can you are still holding and its very heavy now you are going down.why when it works stick with it .you know it works .never change and become a test dummy for the dont knows give at least two years for any new product to prove its self .think how many are not there today

 

[Dan]

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Do your floor tiles meet UK HSE slip-resistance guidelines?
The Health & Safety Executive (HSE) recommends that any floor covering to be used in a public area must have a minimum PTV slip resistance value of 36 to be regarded as 'non-slip'. Whilst this may seem clear the method by which a bathroom or kitchen or any other floor tile is tested can give ambiguous results - meaning a floor tile marked as 'non-slip' may not actually meet these minimum HSE levels.

The less accurate Ramp method produces an R rating from 1 to 13 - with a rating of R11 being deemed sufficient to determine floor tile is ‘slip-resistant'. However, the far more exact and reliable Pendulum slip resistance test now offered by Porcel Thin actually provides a much more precise measurement based on a scale of 1 to 100. Furthermore a tile rated R11 falls into a PTV range of 34-51 which means that an R11 tile rated at 34 or 35 by the PTV system would fail to meet the HSE minimum guideline of 36.

Porcel-Thin are able to certify tile slip resistance to a much higher, HSE approved standard.
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