Floor Tiling advice and are additives necessary?

[Granty]

Hi, I am due to tile our Kitchen floor at the weekend, we went all out for the Black Star light tiles at 600mm, the area is around 10M2. This was a fair outlay to us price wise but I am confident I can do a good enough job so long as I have the right information.
I have done the Kitchen walls and people have said it looks good and I figured floors are similar and possibly easier, with gravity on your side?
I'm just unsure on a few basic details

1) Additives - We brought from Topps Tiles, I asked for 11M2 but when she printed a quote it was too much, she'd added an extra meter in there to which I told her I'd already compensated for waste so she didn't inspire confidence when she informed me that the adhesive and grout both need additives to make it stick to those type of tiles due to water content/warping.
3 lots of the floor additive were about £88 with the grout stuff at about £14. I want it doing properly but I assumed adhesive and grout alone would be OK, so do you recommend the use of additives on these type of tiles or was it just sales patter.

2) Would you apply adhesive to the floor or the tile and how thick should this be, around an inch? I guess so long as there are no voids then that is the main aim right?

3) Maybe a matter of preference but I was looking at the Grey/graphite type of grout but then I thought maybe Black/ebony would look better, I figure if it where possible no lines would look better on these types of tiles so black would help it look more streamlines given that the width of the kitchen only allows for 2-3 lines. I guess what I'm asking is would black look good as I've only seen this with the grey stuff?
4) one exit is to laminate but the other is a step down, do I tile right to the edge of this, would it need some kind of protective strip on the edge of it to avoid chipping?
5) Where do you start from, the kitchen has a small recess both ends and I guess walls are not guaranteed to be straight, so I figured starting slightly out and making sure that the tiles run parallel to the side wall and cupboards would ensure it looks right.

 

[Martyn Leeds]

Yes, a 2-part adhesive with Quartz, and I'd presume you'll find it cheaper somewhere other than Topps.

Lots of basic questions though..
I'd get a decent tiler in to quote. ​

 

[Granty]

Thanks Martyn, to be fair thats the only one that I really needed answering, I appreciate Tiling is a trade but I've took on many trade jobs and am yet to regret it, partly due to the money saved but mainly due to the fact that it's the best way to learn and be confident with such jobs in future.
I'm not arrogant, I often ask for help and advice even if questions are basic or silly and i'm happy if a job takes 3 times as long as it should to get as close to trade standard as I am able. I just can't see how floor tiling can be harder than the walls which I've already done.
The other questions are just for peace of mind, If you know what you are doing is right it's much more difficult to go wrong, right?
I'll likely watch a youtube vid or two to be sure but my main problem is i'm a perfectionist, thats why I ask questions on colour of grout etc, I suppose thickness of adhesive and where to start from are major factors but I can't see how you can go too far wrong with those with a bit of research and care.
It's things like the additive where I can see someone could easily go wrong, had she not pointed that out would I have known, that depends on whether someone on a forum such as this would have mentioned it when I said which type of tile I was using. Is the additive essential? I'm still not sure but I will be using it as 2 times told is enough for me.
Thanks again

 

[Blunt Tool]

Thanks Martyn, to be fair thats the only one that I really needed answering, I appreciate Tiling is a trade but I've took on many trade jobs and am yet to regret it, partly due to the money saved but mainly due to the fact that it's the best way to learn and be confident with such jobs in future.
I'm not arrogant, I often ask for help and advice even if questions are basic or silly and i'm happy if a job takes 3 times as long as it should to get as close to trade standard as I am able. I just can't see how floor tiling can be harder than the walls which I've already done.
The other questions are just for peace of mind, If you know what you are doing is right it's much more difficult to go wrong, right?
I'll likely watch a youtube vid or two to be sure but my main problem is i'm a perfectionist, thats why I ask questions on colour of grout etc, I suppose thickness of adhesive and where to start from are major factors but I can't see how you can go too far wrong with those with a bit of research and care.
It's things like the additive where I can see someone could easily go wrong, had she not pointed that out would I have known, that depends on whether someone on a forum such as this would have mentioned it when I said which type of tile I was using. Is the additive essential? I'm still not sure but I will be using it as 2 times told is enough for me.
Thanks again

Enjoy your YouTube videos!

 

[Martyn Leeds]

Last Quartz I did, it had a warning on the box to use a 2-part, can't remember what the name was or where from though..

 

[jimthetiler]

Topps do a single part adhesive called super flex from bal,if the floor is flat use a 12mm trowel if the floor is all over the place use a self leveling compound.work on 4-5 m per bag for tiling.Bond out one row of tiles in both directions to see where you will end up before fixing,to get a pro job you should have a centerline along both width and length of the floor then bond out the tiles to get equal cuts along both perimeters,this takes great skill and means a lot of cutting.

 

[Porcelainwood]

"Synthetic stones are agglomerates from natural stones, which are bound with cement or resin. These synthetic stones enjoy growing popularity, as the range of designs due to optical versatility in form and colour appears to be endless. This high quality material excels as a rule through high levels of durability. A few of these materials have pronounced expansion, so that long term exposure to moisture can lead to so-called “curling“. As a rule they can be laid with a highly polymer modified thin-bed adhesive with rapid crystalline water binding technology. A few of these materials, especially those with high serpentinite components can “curl“, which can only be prevented by installing with a reaction resin adhesive"

 

[Flintstone]

Granty, your incredibly naive about the job in hand! But i do hope it works out for you.

 

[Tilergal]

Hi Granty. It's not so much that floors are harder to deal with than walls, more that each has its own techniques and problems to take into consideration. Type of substrate, levelling and prepping, correct adhesive etc are very different when tiling a floor, which is why we're advising you to get a professional to quote the job. Training and experience make all the difference in this field, why spend good money on quartz tiles then skimp on installation?

 

[Granty]

Enjoy your YouTube videos!

To be fair I did post a thead in an area named DIY Tiling Forum which implies that advice is available without people getting touchy and to the most part that has been the case, your reply reads as though help won't be forthcoming, but you were wrong
Some people are quite able or willing to do trade jobs and learn as they go, some people pay to save the hassle or are not very good at DIY.

 

[Granty]

Granty, your incredibly naive about the job in hand! But i do hope it works out for you.

I'm not naive, I am simply making sure I know what I'm doing and specifically with the additives, the kitchen wall tiles are still up a year on and they look great, to be honest it was like adult lego, stick them and space them, I found it quite straight forward so maybe you could explain why a floor is so much different to walls?
I had to underpin parts of the wall tiles but to me tiling a floor so long as you have advice from a DIY tiling forum or two would be hard to go wrong, like I said I appreciate many here are in the trade but i'm sure plenty of people out there are confident in their own ability and that includes not starting before you are sure you know what is what.

 

[Blunt Tool]

To be fair I did post a thead in an area named DIY Tiling Forum which implies that advice is available without people getting touchy and to the most part that has been the case, your reply reads as though help won't be forthcoming, but you were wrong
Some people are quite able or willing to do trade jobs and learn as they go, some people pay to save the hassle or are not very good at DIY.

If you read your posts from the start you will see you more or less said you know it all and so good luck and hope it turns out well

 

[Granty]

Hi Granty. It's not so much that floors are harder to deal with than walls, more that each has its own techniques and problems to take into consideration. Type of substrate, levelling and prepping, correct adhesive etc are very different when tiling a floor, which is why we're advising you to get a professional to quote the job. Training and experience make all the difference in this field, why spend good money on quartz tiles then skimp on installation?

I'm not skimping on installation, I'm confident I can get close to a trade finish given the right info! If it takes me 3 times as long as it would a trades person then I'm happy with that as these tiles will be down for a long time.
I talked her into spending that much and I told her exactly like I'm sure they'll look great but it might take a full day, she's taking the kids for the night and we'll have money to take them away rather than spend on a job that I can do, sorry I just feel like these forums are more geared to getting custom for trades people than just helping DIY'ers, if the title of the forum I posted in were different then maybe I'd understand but it does say DIY.

I should note that when I did the kitchen walls It was the second time I'd done that, my GF's Dad had helped me do the Bathroom previous and I learned a fair bit from him but c'mon it's hardly rocket science, I would accept an error as part of learning but I do a lot of research and will not start until I feel I'm where I need to be but this time I feel much more confident, I just want to get the details right. Measure in inches you can't go wrong right?

I'll post a pic when It's done

 

[Granty]

If you read your posts from the start you will see you more or less said you know it all and so good luck and hope it turns out well

I certainly don't know it all but I do want to learn by doing, I have done plastering, plumbing, basic electrics, all sorts of other flooring to name but a few, so if the time comes where there is an error then thats on me, my GF's Dad does a ton of DIY and he's quite good, bit too heavy handed for me (Measures in inches only, just not in my house!) and he doesn't know how to use a computer but he's self taught, nowadays with the internet I think its plausible to seek help and advice and at the end of it make an informed decision on whether you yourself are capable, in this case i will be going ahead, I don't mind posting pics for you guys to pull apart at a later date though but so long as the missus is happy at the end of it then I'm good with that

 

[Granty]

Anyway thanks to all who helped, I understand where most of you guys are coming from but this is a DIY forum so please see where I am coming from, I was always going to be doing this myself.
If the adhesive goes wrong and my floor looks something like the yellow brick road during the storm then I'll come back here and admit I was wrong, that is highly unlikely though.
Just one more Question, what tool do I use to push the *adhesive between the tiles?

 

[Blunt Tool]

I certainly don't know it all but I do want to learn by doing, I have done plastering, plumbing, basic electrics, all sorts of other flooring to name but a few, so if the time comes where there is an error then thats on me, my GF's Dad does a ton of DIY and he's quite good, bit too heavy handed for me and he doesn't know how to use a computer but he's self taught, nowadays with the internet I think its plausible to seek help and advice and at the end of it make an informed decision on whether you yourself are capable, in this case i will be going ahead, I don't mind posting pics for you guys to pull apart at a later date though but so long as the missus is happy at the end of it then I'm good with that

Don’t think anyone on here wants to rip apart any DIY persons tiling, wrong forum for that! Just we have seen this many times before, 10 metres of 600mm quartz onto a kitchen floor would have to be like a billiard table for me to do in one day but you are giving yourself this even tho you said even if it takes you 3 times that of a professional.

 

[Granty]

Don’t think anyone on here wants to rip apart any DIY persons tiling, wrong forum for that! Just we have seen this many times before, 10 metres of 600mm quartz onto a kitchen floor would have to be like a billiard table for me to do in one day but you are giving yourself this even tho you said even if it takes you 3 times that of a professional.

Thanks I know that, I said to my GF if I was in a trade I'd prob be the same, i'm sure you guys have seen your fair share of bad jobs in your time.
The kitchen cupboards run the full length one side and half length the other so theres a lot of plinths along the kitchen perimiters, in fact 3 600mm tiles will reach under each side with about 2 cm to spare (inc Grout lines) so theres not so many cuts as you may think.
I thought a full day would be about right, got the following morn early aft if needed but if it takes longer than that she'll understand, my point is it won't be rushed, I've refused help on this job from a friend simply because I think he'll get frustrated working at my pace and also to ensure I get the finish that I believe I am capable of. Honestly if this job were to go wrong it would be based on the adhesive but I now have enough advice on that thanks to you guys and the shop.
My (Yes Limited) experience with tiling is that you have to work at a reasonable pace to ensure the adhesive stays fresh even when you make it up it reasonable quantities.
Thats kind of why I thought plastering would be my downfall as it's a job that needs a certain pace about it, I'm more slow pace make sure it's right but it worked out ok, nevertheless when it came to the landing stairs and hallway I paid a trades man as that was too big and daunting with the height of the ceilings over stairs for me to even consider attempting.

 

[Dougs Third Go]

Anyway thanks to all who helped, I understand where most of you guys are coming from but this is a DIY forum so please see where I am coming from, I was always going to be doing this myself.
If the adhesive goes wrong and my floor looks something like the yellow brick road during the storm then I'll come back here and admit I was wrong, that is highly unlikely though.
Just one more Question, what tool do I use to push the *adhesive between the tiles?

do you mean "grout" between the tiles?, if so you'll need a grout float. Good luck.

 

[Julian 'Farmer' Bonsall]

The adhesive I have used for a similar job was :
Mapei Fast Setting Flexible Quartz Tile Adhesive Grey 2 Part Granirapid

I am a DIY person who does some tilling now and again for friends, friends of friends and so on and have done for over 25 years. I am slow, always learning and those quartz tiles were almost the end of me. Was a different universe than laying some ceramics.

Granty. These guys are trying to help you (it may not seem it) and when they wish you the best I am sure they mean that. They are highlighting its not a simple job. Keep us updated with how you get on.

 

[Granty]

The adhesive I have used for a similar job was :
Mapei Fast Setting Flexible Quartz Tile Adhesive Grey 2 Part Granirapid

I am a DIY person who does some tilling now and again for friends, friends of friends and so on and have done for over 25 years. I am slow, always learning and those quartz tiles were almost the end of me. Was a different universe than laying some ceramics.

Granty. These guys are trying to help you (it may not seem it) and when they wish you the best I am sure they mean that. They are highlighting its not a simple job. Keep us updated with how you get on.

I will and thanks for the advice, I appreciate all advice, thats why I'm here, just I don't want talking out of a job I am sure I am capable of doing. I'm happy if theres a learning curve but as I said I've tiled my kitchen walls and bathroom from top to bottom and had no problems so you can understand why I want to do the floor.
It's generally an easy layout and I suspect as I have measured to the mm that there will be minimal cuts for the size of the room, that was one reason I went for the 600mm as opposed to the 300mm, it was a close call but the 600mm fit perfect across most the width of the kitchen.
As for the Granirapid I saw that stuff a couple nights ago on the tile magic website and was planning on calling them today, seems a fair bit cheaper than the Bal Fibreplus with the Admix that Topps want to supply, though they did knock some money off their web prices it still came to around £200 just for those though I predict I'd have a bag to return.
Once I know I got the right stuff at a reasonable price I'll be happy.

 

[Tile Shop]

If it's Quartz from Topps, the manufacturer recommend a "low water content" adhesive. Not "zero water content". So you can use two part or the mix of products Topps suggested.

So if the adhesive was the Bal Pourable One, the combination will be 1 bag, litre of AD1 additive, to 3 litres of water (instead of the 4 litres used for normal ceramic and porcelain tiling)

 

[Granty]

Well heres the pics, I'm happy with the results though I would concede it was more difficult than anticipated and there was certainly a learning curve with the levelling and even just the work load for one person.
Don't get me wrong I'm very pleased I did it and I will be doing the utility room/Toilet next but it's easy to overlook lifting tiles and grout bags into place, dry laying them all, the mixing and dropping tiles into place, certainly the 600mm, all of that when working alone is tiring. The cutting which I thought could be tough on quartz was actually very easy.
I didn't get started due to the kids until the Sunday (11th March 13:30ish) afternoon and went into the early hours, I called it a night at 2 thirds done and finished in the morn, grouted afternoon.
Very pleased but at the halfway mark around 10pm at night I had a few doubts, I was pretty tired but the result is great and I feel I accomplished something and learned a lot which is what it was about for me. Thanks for all of your help and warnings You were indeed correct and I would advise anyone to carefully consider the sheer workload of an area larger than 5 or 6M2.
For what its worth the Mapei Granirapid with supplied Mix was great, I ran out and had to get one bag of the Topps supplied Bal fibre plus with some admix which stated 15 mins longer work time but I'd say the Granirapid was longer lasting and a little easier to work with for Quartz.
Anyway heres some pics
Would it be ok to run the wire along (in last pic), part under a 2 tile grout line (along doorway) for under cabinet and plinth lights and to grout over? Thats my plan anyway so I have one small part still to grout as well as Skirtings and door frames to fix.

 

[Julian 'Farmer' Bonsall]

Thanks for your photos. Sounds like you have been hard at work. What did you cut the tiles with (i've never used that material before)?

Hope the family like your hard work.

 

[Granty]

Thanks Julian, The GF is very happy so I am safe for now
The pics don't really do the tiles justice as it's movement that makes them sparkle.

I used a pretty basic wet tile cutter (Plasplugs Compact XL, £40 B&Q) and I brought a 110mm Vitrex cutting Disc I think from Amazon, really surprised me how easy the cutting was. Prob didn't even need the new blade.
Some other things that could possibly help DIY'ers.
The White china pencils where a god send too, I marked a few areas of the floor as I dry laid and after laying the first 2 tiles I realised I was slightly off (about 1mm but would have become more by end of run?) due to these lines, I quickly realised that every cut I had made would be off without correcting that. I had marked the first row clearly but I think it was due to the fact that once the adhesive is down you cannot see the lines so next time I'll probably fix a starting batten?
The floor was very flat except for one slight bulge, I read to start from the highest point if there is slight imperfection.
That would be my number one thing, get your first couple of tiles down very accurately as there's big potential to go wrong even if just slightly offline!
The other thing I brought off an online check list was the paddle mixer drill attachment, I'd not have thought otherwise as I previously mixed by hand but the floor took a lot of adhesive compared to the walls! I would not have wanted to mix that quantity by hand, it was hard work even with a pretty decent drill, in fact that was smoking a little at one point!
I really did learn that there is quite a lot of heavy work on your back and arms which is the main reason next time I do more than 6M2 I'd be giving myself ample time. I back buttered or spread (whatever the correct term is for a thin spread of adhesive) every tile and they were certainly much much harder to pull up once I'd done so so that's the other thing I learnt from my You Tube Videos, simply dropping large format tiles on top of adhesive and giving them a wiggle will give much less adhesion (Something I came across numerous times during my research)

I had around 10.8M2 of tiles according to Topps for a 9.7M2 job and finished with one full 600mm tile spare and that was due to the planning I put in, I figure there's more potential for loss with larger tiles. It would have been another £120 odd for another pack of 3, though I guess they sell individual tiles and take them back too?

I hope my experience can help others but like I said some of the warnings here are well worthy, next time I might just accept a little help and certainly with the initial set up (dry laying etc)
My 3 Year Old boy is some way off unfortunately but he is a key reason why I want to learn, to be able to teach him some basics at least

 

[Bill]

£120 for 1.08m.....jeeesh Topps are outrageous.

 

[Andy Allen]

Try again...
For any DIY enthusiast reading this there's a few points I would like to make.

I wouldn't bother with a £40 plasplug cutter from B&Q......a grinder with a decent blade will be 10 times quicker and easier to use..

Use a metal straight edge or laser to keep your tiles in line, never try to free hand them down, you need a straight line to tile off..

Use a Proper paddle mixer to mix the adhesive, a drill is to fast and will burn out or you will end up with adhesive everywhere..

Any high points should be ground level or the whole floor should be leveled using SLC to prevent voids under the tiles.

And finally, be careful what you see on YouTube, alot of the advice on there is completely wrong, and posted by builders that haven't got a clue about tiling..

 

[Blunt Tool]

Thanks Julian, The GF is very happy so I am safe for now
The pics don't really do the tiles justice as it's movement that makes them sparkle.

I used a pretty basic wet tile cutter (Plasplugs Compact XL, £40 B&Q) and I brought a 110mm Vitrex cutting Disc I think from Amazon, really surprised me how easy the cutting was. Prob didn't even need the new blade.
Some other things that could possibly help DIY'ers.
The White china pencils where a god send too, I marked a few areas of the floor as I dry laid and after laying the first 2 tiles I realised I was slightly off (about 1mm but would have become more by end of run?) due to these lines, I quickly realised that every cut I had made would be off without correcting that. I had marked the first row clearly but I think it was due to the fact that once the adhesive is down you cannot see the lines so next time I'll probably fix a starting batten?
The floor was very flat except for one slight bulge, I read to start from the highest point if there is slight imperfection.
That would be my number one thing, get your first couple of tiles down very accurately as there's big potential to go wrong even if just slightly offline!
The other thing I brought off an online check list was the paddle mixer drill attachment, I'd not have thought otherwise as I previously mixed by hand but the floor took a lot of adhesive compared to the walls! I would not have wanted to mix that quantity by hand, it was hard work even with a pretty decent drill, in fact that was smoking a little at one point!
I really did learn that there is quite a lot of heavy work on your back and arms which is the main reason next time I do more than 6M2 I'd be giving myself ample time. I back buttered or spread (whatever the correct term is for a thin spread of adhesive) every tile and they were certainly much much harder to pull up once I'd done so so that's the other thing I learnt from my You Tube Videos, simply dropping large format tiles on top of adhesive and giving them a wiggle will give much less adhesion (Something I came across numerous times during my research)

I had around 10.8M2 of tiles according to Topps for a 9.7M2 job and finished with one full 600mm tile spare and that was due to the planning I put in, I figure there's more potential for loss with larger tiles. It would have been another £120 odd for another pack of 3, though I guess they sell individual tiles and take them back too?

I hope my experience can help others but like I said some of the warnings here are well worthy, next time I might just accept a little help and certainly with the initial set up (dry laying etc)
My 3 Year Old boy is some way off unfortunately but he is a key reason why I want to learn, to be able to teach him some basics at least

You have done a good job for DIY and if your partner is happy aswell then it’s a winner. Well done !

 

[Granty]

£120 for 1.08m.....jeeesh Topps are outrageous.

I agree they are expensive but all samples we ordered and the next door tile Giants same range were no way near as impressive, I have to say that every single tile looked amazing.
I think Tile Giants range was around £75 M2 with tops around £85 M2 but the difference not just with the mirror particles but the actual Deep black Quartz looked like at least 25% better and they look much more black, the Tile Giant looked a little Gray. We also ordered samples from 2 online places and they were just over half the price but no way near as nice,
I tried researching popular suppliers but didn't come up with much so I just thought If it's gonna be done it needs doing with the best I could find, I honestly think it would have been a bit underwhelming with the half price stuff. This was a big outlay to us but if it lasts us the 5 years or so were here and someone else 10 to 15 years or more then I'd say for the effect it gives it's worth every penny and will certainly add value when we sell our house.

 

[Granty]

You have done a good job for DIY and if your partner is happy aswell then it’s a winner. Well done !

Thank you, that means a lot.
I was looking last night at some of the photos in the galleries on here and have to say that most of the work is immaculate. Some of those intricate designs I wouldn't even think of attempting.

 

[Granty]

Try again...
For any DIY enthusiast reading this there's a few points I would like to make.

I wouldn't bother with a £40 plasplug cutter from B&Q......a grinder with a decent blade will be 10 times quicker and easier to use..

Use a metal straight edge or laser to keep your tiles in line, never try to free hand them down, you need a straight line to tile off..

Use a Proper paddle mixer to mix the adhesive, a drill is to fast and will burn out or you will end up with adhesive everywhere..

Any high points should be ground level or the whole floor should be leveled using SLC to prevent voids under the tiles.

And finally, be careful what you see on YouTube, alot of the advice on there is completely wrong, and posted by builders that haven't got a clue about tiling..

All due respect but I cannot agree with some of this.
The Plasplugs cutter worked seemlessly on these type of tiles, it was extremely easy and as for cutting by free hand, take a look at the line along door step (thats an angled edge) and the one along the cupboard threshold, it wasn't a problem for me but then I'd say people know if they have the eye and patience for that.
As for the drill, maybe you are right but my drill has 2 gears and the first was certainly not too fast, once the mix was almost there I turned up the speed which is when the drill struggled a little so low speed is the way to go, had it not been for the 2 gears I may have struggled to get control, I know this as I started in second gear
As for the high point, to me as a DIY'er it made sense to start there after taking advice on that may I add and it worked for me. I'd have been very reluctant to use self leveling when the one bad point on the whole floor was minimal, before I pulled the old Vinyl tiles up I was dreading what I might find but it was a dream, It wasn't until I got down on my hands and knees with a level that I realised there was one small bulge.
Thats a fair point though and you know far better than I but I would agree that making sure that floor is as level as possible is vital and as for a laser, thats a great bit of advice, I will be using that next time. The white lines did help but covering them with adhesive was an issue!
Again as for YouTube, if you look at at least 3 or 4 videos specific to what you are unsure of you will highly likely find the right or an accepted answer. Mine was to do with back buttering and adhesive depth mainly, I didn't come across much of a variance, in fact I came across many videos explaining the difference in grip by applying adhesive to the back of the tile before laying. That gave me confidence, certainly after testing the strength that would ensure a longer lasting floor. Simply the back buttered tiles needed leverage such as a crow bar to get back up immediately after laying whereas unbuttered they could simply be lifted. Without you tube I wouldn't have realised that. So whilst I'm sure there are a few bad videos out there I would say that if you do enough research you can't go far wrong.
I've done a lot of DIY with the help of the net and have yet to get advice which I later find out to be bad.