Unsure how to fix tiles to this substrate

[highlandtiler]

Hi All
I am trying to fix some broken tiles in a couple of wet rooms in a customers house. When I took up the first few tiles they seem to be on some kind of rubber/ bitumen elastic membrane which I have never seen before. Have any of you seen this before and how should I go about fixing the new tiles? I have attached a couple of photos.
This membrane has been fitted directly to the chipboard and the tiles were loose. Some others have cracked as predicted as they were fixed directly to chipboard! Unbelieveably the customer has 6 bathrooms all tiled the same way and the hall is also tiled directly onto chipboard! The customer knows that the new tiles will crack as well eventually but just needs a serviceable short term solution.
I would be very grateful for your views. Thanks in advance!

 

[Dan]

The chipboard needs to come up and be replaced with ply and ditra.

Or perhaps ply and aqua panel or something.

That needs to go in bin though that.

 

[highlandtiler]

Problem is though that the chipboard IS the floor. there is no ply , ditra uncoupling or anything ! Any idea what the black stuff is?

 

[p4ulo]

Doesn't look like it goes underneath the wall tiles, so its not properly "tanked" for a wetroom.
Sheesh, looks like a right pickle.

 

[highlandtiler]

Your absolutely right P4ulo and all the wetrooms are the same. I think the black rubbery stuff is an attempt to keep the chipboard dry ! The worst thing is that it has underfloor heating as well so eventually they will have major problems.

 

[p4ulo]

Oh Jeez!!! Sounds like its gonna have to all come out to do a proper job mate, at least the floor and 3 courses of wall tiles to put down a proper tanking??

 

[Ian]

That membrane looks like impey tile safe, could be wrong but it has the mesh in between two layers of bitumen.

 

[highlandtiler]

I would agree - the only problem is that he has 4 wetrooms so big bucks - but maybe nice for me!

In the meantime though how can i fix tiles to that black stuff? Flexible adhesive like rapid set ?

 

[Dan]

We concentrate a bit too much on what it is. When the solution is the same.

If you want to tile in there, that needs to come out and you want to ply it, waterproof it, and tile it.

Doesn't matter too much what it is now its destroyed.

 

[AliGage]

The black stuff is a cement based waterproofing coat. Such as ardex WPC.

Unfortunately there is no shirt term solution. If the waterproofing is compromised then it's gonna leak.
Certainly if it's on chipboard too.

If your client isn't looking to redo the wetroom then the only solution other than a rip out is to install a shower tray in the area. One with is on legs, breakout the floor to extend the waste.
Still bot a small job, but that wetarea if not sorted properly will force them to rip out sooner than they'd of hoped for.

 

[Dan]

I would agree - the only problem is that he has 4 wetrooms so big bucks - but maybe nice for me!

In the meantime though how can i fix tiles to that black stuff? Flexible adhesive like rapid set ?

You're going to tile that?

Is it going to be a wetroom / bathroom?

 

[highlandtiler]

Thanks Bri - it looks like it could be Impey. I am just wondering what sort of primer i need for it - BAL APD or something else?

 

[highlandtiler]

You're going to tile that?

Is it going to be a wetroom / bathroom?

Yeah Dan - I am only trying to do a short term fix - his other tiles were broken - because there is no sub floor or ply or ditra etc!

 

[Dan]

Yeah Dan - I am only trying to do a short term fix - his other tiles were broken - because there is no sub floor or ply or ditra etc!

It's going to happen again if there isn't preparation too mate.

I wouldn't bodge 4 bathrooms is it?

Your name is next to them. Sod being known as the guy to call when a bodge job is needed.

Rather you than me matey.

 

[Dan]

Thanks Bri - it looks like it could be Impey. I am just wondering what sort of primer i need for it - BAL APD or something else?

If you're winging it, just scrape it all off, sand it. Prime it and tile it.

But then what's the point of the thread you'd have done that anyway?

Surely if you show the customer it's going to happen again they'll want it done right? Which is cheaper long term?

Are they selling the property or something?

 

[AliGage]

How short term? 48 hours??

I'd rather tile a trampoline than try to tosh that up.
Try not to get starry eyed with the potential of more wetrooms to do. Clients have a tendency to get funny when water is peeing through their ceiling. Regardless of what they may say or imply beforehand.

I think brutal honesty is more likely to win you future work to be honest.

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Hi All
I am trying to fix some broken tiles in a couple of wet rooms in a customers house. When I took up the first few tiles they seem to be on some kind of rubber/ bitumen elastic membrane which I have never seen before. Have any of you seen this before and how should I go about fixing the new tiles? I have attached a couple of photos.
This membrane has been fitted directly to the chipboard and the tiles were loose. Some others have cracked as predicted as they were fixed directly to chipboard! Unbelieveably the customer has 6 bathrooms all tiled the same way and the hall is also tiled directly onto chipboard! The customer knows that the new tiles will crack as well eventually but just needs a serviceable short term solution.
I would be very grateful for your views. Thanks in advance!

View attachment 75253 View attachment 75253 View attachment 75253 View attachment 75254 View attachment 75254

ok the the client needs a short term solution well how many times have i heard this and walked away
so lets turn the truth glass on .i am going to sell this house and need it to look good .and the poor sucker who buys it will have to sort this out .now think you have saved hard to buy your new house pushed your self to the limit .with in weeks you are faced with huge bills on your bathrooms the wife is blaming you the pressurs gets to great the mariage breaks downs kids with out a dad and so on .and you played apart in this .if the work you do you would not do in your own home .then never do it .

 

[Old Mod]

Don't be a mug! Either fix it properly or walk away!

 

[highlandtiler]

It's going to happen again if there isn't preparation too mate.

I wouldn't bodge 4 bathrooms is it?

Your name is next to them. Sod being known as the guy to call when a bodge job is needed.

Rather you than me matey.

I would agree - however they had broken tiles and wanted me to fix and investigate - and this is what i have found. Now the issue is doing a temporary fix for them . I cant leave them in the lurch and it must be possible to fix temporarily until they get the budget to

If you're winging it, just scrape it all off, sand it. Prime it and tile it.

But then what's the point of the thread you'd have done that anyway?

Surely if you show the customer it's going to happen again they'll want it done right? Which is cheaper long term?

Are they selling the property or something?

The problem is Dan the bitumen is not something you can scrape off otherwise as you say i would have sorted. Now I know that it is 99% Impey - i can ring them for advice on doing a remedial job.
The customer is not selling but understands the issues and knows I am not trying to bodge or dodge but clearly he is facing massive expense so he will have to budget for that. In the meantime though - he needs a short term fix which he understands. His rooms are 12 square meters each tiled floor to ceiling so big cost considerations here.

 

[AliGage]

Do the other four wetrooms he has then have issues the make them U/S?

What you do is down to you. But for me it's rip out and redo the Wetarea or cut in a stone shower tray.
Anything else is in fact Tennis! In typical fashion, rained off!

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

I would agree - however they had broken tiles and wanted me to fix and investigate - and this is what i have found. Now the issue is doing a temporary fix for them . I cant leave them in the lurch and it must be possible to fix temporarily until they get the budget to



The problem is Dan the bitumen is not something you can scrape off otherwise as you say i would have sorted. Now I know that it is 99% Impey - i can ring them for advice on doing a remedial job.
The customer is not selling but understands the issues and knows I am not trying to bodge or dodge but clearly he is facing massive expense so he will have to budget for that. In the meantime though - he needs a short term fix which he understands. His rooms are 12 square meters each tiled floor to ceiling so big cost considerations here.

so come on wake up the cost of bodging four is the cost of putting one wright .so oh my god they have to share one bathroom welcome to the real world .every step you take digs a bigger hole .my dad told me when you are in sh%(" up to your neck spare a thought for the poor bast%ard your standing on there all standing on you but will they think the same .

 

[SJPurdy]

Can we take this as more proof that the Impey stuff isn't suitable to tile onto? Although to be fair it appears to have held the water on top of it and protected the chipboard underneath.

 

[Dave]

Are these floors/wet rooms down stairs ?...

 

[highlandtiler]

Are these floors/wet rooms down stairs ?...

Hi Dave - this one is the worst - 2 downstairs 2 upstairs - but only 1 cracked tile to replace upstairs. The owner know it is a poor installation not done to spec but they bought the house from the previous owner and dd not have this work done themselves. As you can imagine its worrying for them that they may have to rip them all out sooner rather than later.

 

[Dave]

Not floating floors then ?

 

[highlandtiler]

Not floating floors then ?

No - The tiles have been stuck directly onto chipboard in some areas , over 6mm ply in others and over the Impey membrane in others. Recipe for disaster.

 

[AliGage]

No - The tiles have been stuck directly onto chipboard in some areas , over 6mm ply in others and over the Impey membrane in others. Recipe for disaster.

What have you done to check it's not a floater?

 

[highlandtiler]

What have you done to check it's not a floater?

I have seen underneath another tile I have lifted that it is the chipboard floor underneath. In this case i can see on one side 6mm ply then UFH then tile, in the middle there is nothing but the join of the chipboard (which is why the tile cracked i guess) and on the other side is the impey membrane. I have also checked for position of joists by looking underneath the floor in an inspection hatch in the hall. There is also a solid wooden floor laid directly on chipboard and tiles in the hall cracked to hell as they are on just the chipboard.

 

[AliGage]

Out of interest, what's the span between the joists?

 

[highlandtiler]

Out of interest, what's the span between the joists?

400mm - they are stuffed from underneath with insulation.