Tiling failure over wundafloor

[Nbke8kv]

Reading a previous thread I feel that there is hope for my situation. The names listed below are from contributors of the old thread, that is the only reason they are mentioned. Thank you.

@Localtiler, @3_fall , @jcrtiling - Guys I'm in desperate need for some PROFESSIONAL advice. I've saved for 10yrs to get my family home extended... I've had no house now for just under a year with 2 young children. This has literally broken me, so any advice would be massively appreciated.

I've had the wunda EPS 400 install to the whole of my downstairs as I have a 120 X 120 - 6mm ceramic tile laid. 1 month ago the floor protection was finally removed as my was kitchen installed. After waiting a whole year for this moment... I walked into a nightmare! A number of tiles have blow and all felt hollow. They have dot and dabbed my whole floor! After 4 week battling between my kitchen company (Tillers) builder (floor prep) I have finally got the kitchen company to agree to fix it... now I want it done properly!

Tilling: They used an adhesive to stick down a ditra matting directly on top of the boards before dotting and dabbing the tiles to get them level as the house is sloping by 30-40cm. Bal adhesive from Topps tiles. Very wrong!!!

Floor prep: The builder glued the boards directly onto the concrete floor (extension) and the existing wooden floor boards. No levelling at and the existing wooden floor area has movement when standing on it.

My question to you guys - The Kitchen company recommend removing the tiles and as much of the adhesive and then screeding it level - Reading this thread this doesn't seem right but will this work?
Or would you advice to remove the UFH and start again?

For both option do you have any experience with how you would do it?

@Localtiler, @3_fall , @jcrtiling
Do either of you do consultancy work and would be interested in helping me I'd be happy to compensate you for your time. I'm in south east London.

 

[Dumbo]

Your biggest problem is movement .some of your issues could be resolved without taking up the boards but you have to get rid of the floor bounce . Dotting and dabbing in any situation is wrong but with thin porcelain is absolute madness .
@3_fall is really the man for this as he has experience in rectifying faulty wundafloor installs .

 

[Nbke8kv]

Thanks @jcrtiling - Tiles are definitely coming up! Now its just a case of understanding if the UFH boards need to come up. It out by 30mm in areas so I don't think I have a choice. If I need to screed the floor to level it out any idea of the minimum depth the screed would need to be? and how I can achieve that same level over wooden floorboards?

 

[Dumbo]

You can get plenty of levellng compounds which go from 5 to 50 mm so that' no problem . Are you saying your timber is out of level or a different height to the cement screed.

 

[Andy Tiler]

Remove the heating boards make good floor level then install heating i would recommend warmup

 

[Nbke8kv]

Ok an update... the builder said the extension flooring area is chipboard and not concrete (least the whole downstairs is the same material)... and tested it with a laser level - The floor is only 15mm out over a 80m2 area (measuring from the surface of the ditra matting/ not the top of the dabs). The tiller used a large level to try and get the floor ask accurate as possible (not a laser level) hence them trying to build the levels using the dab method.
They are aiming to take all the tiles back up. Chip away the Dot and dabs and the use a 5-10mm self levelling screed on top of the ditra matting before tilling again.
I get this is not the correct way to do but can anyone advise if using Bal screed will stick on top of the ditra matting ok and then using bal flexible adhesive will work?
Some pictures... I hope this will help other out in the future...

 

[Andy Tiler]

What a mess!!! 10mm on top of ditra very risky! As you remove the dots i bet you will pull at the matting making it debond.. i wouldn't mess about i would rip the lot up!

 

[Qwerty]

As Andy says, not advised at all. I would start afresh

 

[Dumbo]

Just splitting hairs but that ditra matting looks like dural durabase

 

[One Day]

As above, you've paid for a proper job, that's what you should get. They're offering a solution which saves them money, but I don't think would last. Layering up leveler into old adhesive is not ideal and it will negate the properties of the durabase (cheap ditra alternative).
I can see the thinking behind the proposal but who's going to guarantee it?

 

[Qwerty]

It sure does look like Dural

 

[Nbke8kv]

Thank you all very much for your advice. Just call them, yes this is Dural. I've got a better chance of winning the lottery than getting them to agree to pulling this up and relay it!

 

[Dumbo]

Dural not a problem used loads of it without comebacks . It's just that if they quoted and charged schluter ditra price then fixed dural with different price point

 

[One Day]

If they won't do it, name and shame on as much social media as possible.
What's their reputation worth to them?

 

[Nbke8kv]

@impish I'm a digital marketer specialising in FB and insta... really don't want to go down that route...plus I'm better a promoting. Can anyone give me a rough costing for removing, relaying the boards (I will buy) and retiling. Its a open plan kitchen, dinner and front room. With a small downstairs toilet and utility. About 80m2.
Are any of you guys willing to travel to DA16?

 

[Andy Tiler]

I don't think anybody could give a price for that? Id be more concerned about getting it done properly...

 

[WetSaw]

The only positive is that it looks like the adhesive hasn't bonded to the tile at all so you could probably reuse them!

 

[Nbke8kv]

Thanks @pdc - The tiller is willing to cover the cost of any damaged tiles. As @andy tiler said - I just want it done properly so the family can enjoy it for years to come!

 

[Dumbo]

@impish I'm a digital marketer specialising in FB and insta... really don't want to go down that route...plus I'm better a promoting. Can anyone give me a rough costing for removing, relaying the boards (I will buy) and retiling. Its a open plan kitchen, dinner and front room. With a small downstairs toilet and utility. About 80m2.
Are any of you guys willing to travel to DA16?

If you want to get a fairly accurate price for doing the work you would need them to get the boards up so whoever looks at it is only going forward. Remedials are hard to cost as you never know what you will find .

 

[Andy Tiler]

If you cover my costs i will be willing to take a trip over to take a look?
There must be a few decent tilers in your area?

 

[Dumbo]

If you cover my costs i will be willing to take a trip over to take a look?
There must be a few decent tilers in your area?

Is this something you do in between not scoring goals

 

[Andy Tiler]

Is this something you do in between not scoring goals

Haha

 

[Nbke8kv]

@andy tiler - They are due to remove the kitchen and take up the floor starting Saturday 24th. Once they start I will take you up on that offer. Track record people are not very reliable and I don't want to waste your time. Thank you very much Andy.

 

[Simon Dale]

Are you in Dartford ?

 

[One Day]

@andy tiler - They are due to remove the kitchen and take up the floor starting Saturday 24th. Once they start I will take you up on that offer. Track record people are not very reliable and I don't want to waste your time. Thank you very much Andy.

Andy's pretty good but he talks a lot!
(...and check if his van will hold enough charge to make it from Manchester)

 

[Andy Tiler]

Andy's pretty good but he talks a lot!
(...and check if his van will hold enough charge to make it from Manchester)

 

[Andy Tiler]

Andy's pretty good but he talks a lot!
(...and check if his van will hold enough charge to make it from Manchester)

That would be a train job

 

[Old Mod]

If you cover my costs i will be willing to take a trip over to take a look?
There must be a few decent tilers in your area?

@andy tiler - They are due to remove the kitchen and take up the floor starting Saturday 24th. Once they start I will take you up on that offer. Track record people are not very reliable and I don't want to waste your time. Thank you very much Andy.

Haha behave yourself Andy haha
Simon above is in Maidstone, in fact I think everyone I know in England is closer than you. Haha

I would however be more concerned about the movement you mentioned originally.

The chances of removing adhesive from the Dural matting are slim to none without destroying it. It’s not like ditra where you can chip it clear. It’s covered with a mesh that doesn’t let go.
Apart from a little difficult to use at times it’s a decent product.
These overlay ufh systems are designed to be laid to flat, sound, load bearing substrate.
It doesn’t sound as if your original floor was up to standard if there’s movement and bounce.
Your floor should have been levelled prior the install of ufh.
Levelling over the top will now impact the efficiency of your floor and you may find some areas warmer to the touch than others, especially if it’s different thicknesses of leveller everywhere.
There are other issues attached to Wundafloor, it has an aluminium covering, this foil can react with Portland cement and is supposed to be tiled in a very specific manner, in fact most I know, won’t even tile it at all.
There is a product now sold by Wundatrade, which is a 4mm backer board designed to be stuck over underfloor to negate the chemical reaction between aluminium and Portland cement.


https://www.wundatrade.co.uk/shop/home/accessories/tools-accessories-2/4mm-backer-board/


Have you checked to see if the Dural is actually stuck to the ufh still?

 

[Nbke8kv]

Yes @3_fall... thank you so much for such a detailed response! Thank you all.. This site is a life saver... my family are at home in the bloody cold right now with just an oil heater!! looking at me like what the hell is going on!!

@3_fall I'm constantly getting mixed signals. My builders response "I've use Bal on top of this floor all the time and get no problems". Next week I will find out more as they will be taking up a bigger area so I should be able to see if the dural is stuck and if they are even able to get it up without wrecking it! All of the signals i'm getting is I need to start again!!

If there is movement and bounce is the builder at fault for not preparing it correctly. Or is the tiller at fault for tilling over something that was not prepared correctly?

When I spoke to Wunda they said "if I use there products I shouldn't need to use the board". @3_fall in you experience would you still use them? (as I will have to take that cost) if so how do you stick them down?

If only one side of the house seems to have the movement is there anyway to repair this without the floor coming up?

Guys - Is it worth me paying to get the TTA round to do an independent review and will they look at the subfloor?

Again I cannot thank you enough!

 

[Nbke8kv]

@Simon Dale sorry - close.. im in welling.