Natural stone floor thread in the public forum

[Dan]

Is this ok? Natural stone floor not level after tiling - http://www.tilersforums.com/threads/is-this-ok-natural-stone-floor-not-level-after-tiling.81098/

Just want to explain where I'm coming from about this thread whilst not actually winding the thread up. So I thought I'd post it in here.

I haven't read the whole thread fully. Just scanned over it.

But the title of the thread is it's uneven. Then as time has moved on, it's more to do with the colouring. As it's apparent it's not the tiler then, they're getting a fired-earth rep in.

The guy doesn't want to pay the tiler to replace the darker sheets, I assume as he feels he shouldn't have to, but IMO it's not the shop or the tilers fault.

That's all I'm saying.

It feels to me like the moment one of us say it's down to the shop or the tiler, he'll print that off and use it to wriggle out of what I think is his own fault to be fair.

It's a natural product. End of. Check the actual tiles being fitted. Like you would with any slate or marble or whatever. In his position, I'd have just mixed up some of the hexagons from the dark sheets to the light, especially around the edge of the sheets, so it's not so obvious.

@pjc

I still owe the tiler a third of the money. He feels he is being criticised because of Fired Earth's lack of help with this, and that he should be paid all of his money. I asked him to come back and improve the floor. He has offered to cut out the darker sheets and put the unused sheets in but offers no guarantees it would be better

This is where I got the suggestion from of him holding money back. Naughty IMO.

My spidey senses are tingling. That's all.

I think ATS sensed it too by the sounds of his posts about paying the tiler to replace the dark tiles (rather than withholding payment until he does?) - That's what I got from that.

The guys bought natural tiles. If he wanted to guarantee the colour, he really needed to check the bloody things before they were fixed.

I also think there's some of this going on too....



The fact he's placing tiles with "black" around them where there isn't grout, on top of tiles with a lighter grout that has been fitted, is making the tiles look different shades.

But like in this illusion, they may actually be the same shade and when they're replaced and grouted, just look exactly the same.

I'm just not buying it. He's after witholding payment from either the tiler, or wants fired earth to replace at their cost, either way, he's spent £700 on tiles and moaning about paying for a couple of hours to replace them?

On yer bike IMO.

 

[WetSaw]

Im not and wouldn't take out my frustration on the tiler by not paying him.

I am unhappy with Fired Earth's attitude though but have not had any joy with them, either in their tech dept or customer services. Even so if it was down to them I would not punish the tiler. I haven't actually said that I won't be paying him in full.

I'm not trying to pick a fight Dan! Obviously the thread moved on from the floor not being flat to more about the general finish. I think the consensus is that the floor wasn't clean before being sealed. This has lead to it looking rough. The huge colour variations should have been noticed by the tiler and, as you say, adjustments made to mitigate that if there was such a noticeable difference before being sealed.

 

[Bill]

I agree Dan, shading in a dark room that has reflecting walls is always a problem for the human eye.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Originally he was concerned about the levels. It was from comments made by members about the grout and uneven shading that the thread moved on. He may be waiting for the information to pursue a claim as you suggest from tiler or supplier, but it seems to be going around in a circle at present.
As happens in our industry, being a finishing trade, we are expected to leave everything perfect. However, materials provided often don't allow for the engineer in us all to flourish!
Reading the later posts - you certainly know how to get a reaction!

 

[hmtiling]

Is this ok? Natural stone floor not level after tiling - http://www.tilersforums.com/threads/is-this-ok-natural-stone-floor-not-level-after-tiling.81098/

Just want to explain where I'm coming from about this thread whilst not actually winding the thread up. So I thought I'd post it in here.

I haven't read the whole thread fully. Just scanned over it.

But the title of the thread is it's uneven. Then as time has moved on, it's more to do with the colouring. As it's apparent it's not the tiler then, they're getting a fired-earth rep in.

The guy doesn't want to pay the tiler to replace the darker sheets, I assume as he feels he shouldn't have to, but IMO it's not the shop or the tilers fault.

That's all I'm saying.

It feels to me like the moment one of us say it's down to the shop or the tiler, he'll print that off and use it to wriggle out of what I think is his own fault to be fair.
Agreed!
It's a natural product. End of. Check the actual tiles being fitted. Like you would with any slate or marble or whatever. In his position, I'd have just mixed up some of the hexagons from the dark sheets to the light, especially around the edge of the sheets, so it's not so obvious.

@pjc

This is where I got the suggestion from of him holding money back. Naughty IMO.

My spidey senses are tingling. That's all.

I think ATS sensed it too by the sounds of his posts about paying the tiler to replace the dark tiles (rather than withholding payment until he does?) - That's what I got from that.

The guys bought natural tiles. If he wanted to guarantee the colour, he really needed to check the bloody things before they were fixed.

I also think there's some of this going on too....

View attachment 85724 View attachment 85725

The fact he's placing tiles with "black" around them where there isn't grout, on top of tiles with a lighter grout that has been fitted, is making the tiles look different shades.

But like in this illusion, they may actually be the same shade and when they're replaced and grouted, just look exactly the same.

I'm just not buying it. He's after witholding payment from either the tiler, or wants fired earth to replace at their cost, either way, he's spent £700 on tiles and moaning about paying for a couple of hours to replace them?

On yer bike IMO.

 

[Tile Shop]

My head is still trying to process the above picture. But it is a very good way of looking at it.

 

[Bill]

Not just this thread but nearly all the threads that are started by customers complaining, far too many tilers slag of the job without knowing the full facts. I feel, as a community, the tilers should have some back up before they are pounced upon by saying it is dreadful (we are not talking about the 'general builders mate who can tile' tilers)

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Not just this thread but nearly all the threads that are started by customers complaining, far too many tilers slag of the job without knowing the full facts. I feel, as a community, the tilers should have some back up before they are pounced upon by saying it is dreadful (we are not talking about the 'general builders mate who can tile' tilers

I agree as we don't get all the information till it's dragged from the customer.
However most of the jobs shown are disgraceful and we have to protect our trade from these 'tilers'.
Of late there have been a couple of threads highlighting those customers who will never be happy and the old tiler possibly needs a bit of support.

 

[Concrete guy]

I see it this way.

The customer has bought marble tiles from a small sample ordered over the phone. Clearly hasn't unpacked or looked through what's arrived and has left the tiler to get on with it. The tiler has fitted what he's been given.

A couple of things spring to mind on this thread.

The job doesn't look badly done, the "untidy" grouting looks more to do with rough cut marble edges than bad grouting.
The grubby nature of the grout could be after a plumber has been in and fitted the sanitaryware. Much of the grubbyness looks like dust from drilling to me.

Is it reasonable for the tiler to assume that the marble mosaics supplied by the customer have been checked and approved?

Is it reasonable for the customer to assume that the tiler should know what the customer has in mind when it comes to the appearance of the floor? Should the tiler then start pulling different shades of mosaic sheet from the supplied tiles on the basis the customer might not like them?

Lack of communication, that's what this whole problem comes down to. Too many assumptions and lack of people actually talking to each other.

Like Dan I get a bit irked when the finger is pointed at the tiler form the word go.

The reality is that assumption is the mother of all **** ups.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

My reply went into Toms !!

 

[Dan]

Not just this thread but nearly all the threads that are started by customers complaining, far too many tilers slag of the job without knowing the full facts. I feel, as a community, the tilers should have some back up before they are pounced upon by saying it is dreadful (we are not talking about the 'general builders mate who can tile' tilers)

I totally agree. Happened a few times.

I hate thinking we're being used as ammo to stop a tiler being paid.

Wonder what the outcome will be.

 

[Dan]

I agree as we don't get all the information till it's dragged from the customer.
However most of the jobs shown are disgraceful and we have to protect our trade from these 'tilers'.
Of late there have been a couple of threads highlighting those customers who will never be happy and the old tiler possibly needs a bit of support.

My reply went into Toms !!

Fixed

 

[Time's Ran Out]

I see it this way.

The customer has bought marble tiles from a small sample ordered over the phone. Clearly hasn't unpacked or looked through what's arrived and has left the tiler to get on with it. The tiler has fitted what he's been given.

A couple of things spring to mind on this thread.

The job doesn't look badly done, the "untidy" grouting looks more to do with rough cut marble edges than bad grouting.
The grubby nature of the grout could be after a plumber has been in and fitted the sanitaryware. Much of the grubbyness looks like dust from drilling to me.

Is it reasonable for the tiler to assume that the marble mosaics supplied by the customer have been checked and approved?

Is it reasonable for the customer to assume that the tiler should know what the customer has in mind when it comes to the appearance of the floor? Should the tiler then start pulling different shades of mosaic sheet from the supplied tiles on the basis the customer might not like them?

Lack of communication, that's what this whole problem comes down to. Too many assumptions and lack of people actually talking to each other.

Like Dan I get a bit irked when the finger is pointed at the tiler form the word go.

The reality is that assumption is the mother of all **** ups.

1) The tiles were bought from a 'reputable' source after receiving a sample. One would expect that sample to be representative of the stock held now, not 3/6/9 months ago! However this is hardly ever the case and they do advise to check shades before fixing.
I would check the batch/shade / quantity of tiles before I started any job.
2) It is not acceptable in my opinion to fix tiles that have been supplied - because that's what he's been given! As a professional ( and he didn't have a wet cutter!) it's not reasonable to assume that the tiles have been checked by others.
3) Once the shade variation had become apparent he should have mixed the pieces of mosaic - piece by piece if required, to get an acceptable blend.

Saying all that I'am not sure if he could have appeased a customer at that stage.

 

[Concrete guy]

1) The tiles were bought from a 'reputable' source after receiving a sample. One would expect that sample to be representative of the stock held now, not 3/6/9 months ago! However this is hardly ever the case and they do advise to check shades before fixing.
I would check the batch/shade / quantity of tiles before I started any job.
2) It is not acceptable in my opinion to fix tiles that have been supplied - because that's what he's been given! As a professional ( and he didn't have a wet cutter!) it's not reasonable to assume that the tiles have been checked by others.
3) Once the shade variation had become apparent he should have mixed the pieces of mosaic - piece by piece if required, to get an acceptable blend.

Saying all that I'am not sure if he could have appeased a customer at that stage.

Before any of the above took place there should have been a conversation between the customer and the tiler.

That's the problem, in fact that's the entire problem. No one seems to have talked to anyone else.

 

[Andy Allen]

I make it quite clear from the start if customers purchase there own tiles then they have to check batches, shading etc to make sure it is exactly what they want.
After all there employing me as a fixer to fix there tiles not spend half a day sorting though there b & q specials ..
However if I supply the tiles then I'm responsable for them.....but then I have a mark up on the tiles to allow me to sort any issues.
In saying all this if something quite obvious jumps out at me to be wrong then of course I would flag it up.
But I will say I've done a few jobs where everything looks perfect till you grout it and then it shows up different shades / batches . And when box's have little to no info on them ....or cowboy suppliers mixing batches and taping boxs to get rid of old stock what are we supposed to do?

 

[Italy]

1) The tiles were bought from a 'reputable' source after receiving a sample. One would expect that sample to be representative of the stock held now, not 3/6/9 months ago! However this is hardly ever the case and they do advise to check shades before fixing.
I would check the batch/shade / quantity of tiles before I started any job.
2) It is not acceptable in my opinion to fix tiles that have been supplied - because that's what he's been given! As a professional ( and he didn't have a wet cutter!) it's not reasonable to assume that the tiles have been checked by others.
3) Once the shade variation had become apparent he should have mixed the pieces of mosaic - piece by piece if required, to get an acceptable blend.

Saying all that I'am not sure if he could have appeased a customer at that stage.

exactly, these laws are

 

[Italy]

ba, I'm not quite agree with the answers given by members ..
if a job sucks, I do not care who did it, tilerbricklayer or other.
I happen a few times to make mistakes, but at night I can not sleep and the next morning, I place the error. do not expect the customer to tell me.
The rules are clear, (already mentioned another trend), invented the rules do not interest me. the tiler has to stop and call everyone, customer, reseller.
Here, we are talking of Color shades, but have you seen the spirit level? and grout ?.
What should you say? that is beautiful?. I sincerely, I would refuse to take money and run away as far as possible.
when you work, you have to put into operation the conscience, and not always think only about money.

 

[Lithofin BOB]

Think,This could happen to anyone,
The tiles were fixed and the overall colour was good, as I am informed.
The impregnator was applied and they all went darker in different areas, this can be several things.
This is why I got him to test an unlaid sheet with the impregnator, they can change the colour, or highlight colour! Especially on honed surfaces, Which they did, with no moisture involved
I have been telling him to test stripping this out to see if we can get back to a lighter shade and test a water based, but seems more involved on blame rather than resolve.
I have spoken to fixer, which was interesting!.But , surely again this could happen to anyone. Testing any impregnator is key for final colour change on naturals, one unlaid stone is easier to resolve and check,confirm aesthetic , than an complete floor.

 

[Andy Allen]

ba, I'm not quite agree with the answers given by members ..
if a job sucks, I do not care who did it, tilerbricklayer or other.
I happen a few times to make mistakes, but at night I can not sleep and the next morning, I place the error. do not expect the customer to tell me.
The rules are clear, (already mentioned another trend), invented the rules do not interest me. the tiler has to stop and call everyone, customer, reseller.
Here, we are talking of Color shades, but have you seen the spirit level? and grout ?.
What should you say? that is beautiful?. I sincerely, I would refuse to take money and run away as far as possible.
when you work, you have to put into operation the conscience, and not always think only about money.

Thought we were on about shading issues??........agree there's no excuse for shoddy work.......and to be honest I think it's where he's coming unstuck....if he would of done a peach job and the shading was the only problem then I think his case would be stronger.

 

[widler]

Aye, I'm with Andy , if the job was good and clean I think the customer would of been ok , or maybe not, some customers would not be happy with perfect, I call them tosssers)

 

[Dan]

Anyway. I just wanted to clear things up a bit between me and peejaysee.

Obvs more to it than meets the eye, and if stuff meets the eye, maybe still more to it like the illusion.