Making the jump from domestic to commercial.

[DanEwen]

Hi guys, after some advice. Am just a sole trader and work on my own. Recently I have just completed 62 student accommodation units, although I hate that type of work the possibilities it can bring for my family and me have got me thinking.

At the minuet I do all domestic bathrooms, kitchens etc for a number of bathroom, kitchen and building companies and I enjoy it. I would like to keep doing myself but the money that can be made and also the security of long term contracts in the commercial sector have got me wanting more.

But at the minuet I feel am in a catch 22 situation. Where I need man power to secure bigger contracts, but at this minuet in time I don't have enough work to employ more man power.

I am looking for advice off people on how to transition into this. Another thing also is I have built my reputation of the quality and speed of my work how do you find other hard working and quality tilers ? I guess this is just trial and error. But if you take someone and they drop you in the rubbish.

Another question how do you price for bigger companies ? the student accommodation I mentioned I got in through a friend who has a dry lining company.

Any and all information would be greatly appreciated. No negative comments please nobody needs that.

Many thanks
Dan

 

[Andy Allen]

Why no negative comments.....??
Reading your post I had plenty to say, having employed up to 10 subcontract tilers in the 80,s, doing large commercial contracts and housing sites.....
However some of it was negative, so if all you want to hear is how its all a bed of roses then your not getting the full picture..
Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick.
But in imo, all advice can be good advice, negative or not...

 

[Dumbo]

Speak to your bank manager . Most people that phone me tell me how good it all is and how competitive they are when all I asked is what is your payment terms . Eventually they tell me 30 day end of month invoice to which I say not interested. ( don't see why I should bank roll their business . They can speak to the bank about a loan )

 

[DanEwen]

Negative as in “ you will never be able to do it” “your getting ahead of yourself”

Am not looking for the easy way either am looking for the right way. Hence the reason I have turned to here.

I have no one to talk to about this kind of thing. Am trying to better myself and the life of my family.

 

[DanEwen]

Speak to your bank manager . Most people that phone me tell me how good it all is and how competitive they are when all I asked is what is your payment terms . Eventually they tell me 30 day end of month invoice to which I say not interested. ( don't see why I should bank roll their business . They can speak to the bank about a loan )

Am going to schedule a meeting with the bank and see how they can assist me. Some of the companies I do work for have a two week turn around and I don’t mind it as long as I know in advance.

 

[Blunt Tool]

Take on and train up an apprentice, learn him how to grout first so that you can just keep tiling ahead of him. He will be as good as the person that trains him and sure there are still apprenticeship schemes to help cover his wages.

 

[DanEwen]

Take on and train up an apprentice, learn him how to grout first so that you can just keep tiling ahead of him. He will be as good as the person that trains him and sure there are still apprenticeship schemes to help cover his wages.

Good advice thanks callatiler. I have had a 20yr start and quit said it wasn’t for him and had a 16yr straight out of school that didn’t want to come back as was to phisical .... need to get in touch with the local college would be better having an apprentice that has already started college and is interested. Thanks

 

[Andy Allen]

From my experience employing people is a nightmare...... There are the exceptions, good reliable tradesmen that turn up on time do an excellent job with minimal fuss and supervision, however most of them are working for themselves.
then there's the always late, if they ever turn up, do a half *** job tradesmen.
Fact is no one will care as much about your business as you.
We ended up going callatiler route and trained up some young lads.... One of which is still tiling to this day in Germany and I catch up with him on Facebook now and again..
To tender for large contracts you have to contact them to ask to go on to there list of main contractors......
Be warned you have retentions to consider, full PLI for your company and employees, materials to sort out and price, wages to fund, and all of this while waiting weeks/months to be paid.

I went the opposite route to the one your considering....... From running and working on large contracts and housing sites, to tiling Mrs Jones 4m2 metro kitchen...... And I've never been happier!!

hence my comment about negative feedback...... Not saying don't go for it just be assured it's not all abed of roses..

 

[Dave Mitchell]

I think the private or self builds are best I ll do big tiling jobs I did a 400 m2 pool in 8 weeks plus private jobs on my own 9 years ago nearly killed me but good experience lol older u get easier u want it lol staff are pain in the doings too !!!!!

 

[DanEwen]

From my experience employing people is a nightmare...... There are the exceptions, good reliable tradesmen that turn up on time do an excellent job with minimal fuss and supervision, however most of them are working for themselves.
then there's the always late, if they ever turn up, do a half *** job tradesmen.
Fact is no one will care as much about your business as you.
We ended up going callatiler route and trained up some young lads.... One of which is still tiling to this day in Germany and I catch up with him on Facebook now and again..
To tender for large contracts you have to contact them to ask to go on to there list of main contractors......
Be warned you have retentions to consider, full PLI for your company and employees, materials to sort out and price, wages to fund, and all of this while waiting weeks/months to be paid.

I went the opposite route to the one your considering....... From running and working on large contracts and housing sites, to tiling Mrs Jones 4m2 metro kitchen...... And I've never been happier!!

hence my comment about negative feedback...... Not saying don't go for it just be assured it's not all abed of roses..

Thanks for the information I appreciate it. To start with I will have to take on subbys for contracts so can let got once the contract is finished. Or if I get another contact can move them onto there. Also don't want to be paying holidays and sick days to start with. Definitely going to look to train someone up. Hopefully when my son comes of age he will want to get into the business.

Am still young (33) so am hungry and want to push myself to see what I can achieve. Just need some guidance from time to time. It sounds vein but I am very much money driven so will push myself to do better. Materials, price, wages etc doesn't faze me getting the right work force is my main concern. But I guess like most things its trial and error. Just a daunting step forward really. But if I don't take chances how will I ever progress ....

Like I say I appreciate your input

 

[DanEwen]

I think the private or self builds are best I ll do big tiling jobs I did a 400 m2 pool in 8 weeks plus private jobs on my own 9 years ago nearly killed me but good experience lol older u get easier u want it lol staff are pain in the doings too !!!!!

This is something I personally I would love to do with an apprentice. I love doing the higher end spec tiling. The contract stuff I would ideally like to put lads on. I have a training day with Schulter at the end of the month about leaning how to use all there new products.

Thanks for your input mate

 

[DanEwen]

Take on and train up an apprentice, learn him how to grout first so that you can just keep tiling ahead of him. He will be as good as the person that trains him and sure there are still apprenticeship schemes to help cover his wages.

Could you point me in the right direction about this funding for wages ? I have found information about funding for training but not wages.

Thanks

 

[Blunt Tool]

Could you point me in the right direction about this funding for wages ? I have found information about funding for training but not wages.

Thanks

Look into nhbc apprenticeship schemes and local apprenticeship schemes, your local job centre will point you in the right direction.

 

[Dumbo]

Don't forget you will be involved in paying your subby's tax and also if you are doing all this work it is not going to take you long to cross the vat threshold . So you will be doing quarterly vat returns .

 

[DanEwen]

Don't forget you will be involved in paying your subby's tax and also if you are doing all this work it is not going to take you long to cross the vat threshold . So you will be doing quarterly vat returns .

Thanks jcrtiling. I have already spoke to my accountant about the vat situation. As for the subby’s tax if they are self employed is it not up to them to pay tax ? Some company’s I work for pay my tax (cis payments) others don’t I just pay it. Would it not be the same ?
Thanks

 

[DanEwen]

Don't forget you will be involved in paying your subby's tax and also if you are doing all this work it is not going to take you long to cross the vat threshold . So you will be doing quarterly vat returns .

On a side note is it worth joining the tta? Had mixed reviews from both tilers and customers that have used the tta. Cheers

 

[Dumbo]

Thanks jcrtiling. I have already spoke to my accountant about the vat situation. As for the subby’s tax if they are self employed is it not up to them to pay tax ? Some company’s I work for pay my tax (cis payments) others don’t I just pay it. Would it not be the same ?
Thanks

Strictly speaking if you are a main contractor employing sub contractors it is up to you to pay their tax contributions unless they earn over a certain amount they can apply to make their own contributions . An exception to this would be if they were tiling your offices for instance , i don't know why but this wouldn't apply .

 

[Dumbo]

On a side note is it worth joining the tta? Had mixed reviews from both tilers and customers that have used the tta. Cheers

You would have to look into that to see what they have to offer you to see wether you think it's worth it .

 

[DanEwen]

Strictly speaking if you are a main contractor employing sub contractors it is up to you to pay their tax contributions unless they earn over a certain amount they can apply to make their own contributions . An exception to this would be if they were tiling your offices for instance , i don't know why but this wouldn't apply .

Ok that’s something I will look into. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

One word Carrillion !
That’s all you need to know about going that next steps.
When they stop paying you and your looking out your office window wondering who is going to be knocking on your door today , remember it was you not your family that wanted the stress, the debt, the bailiffs...
How much money do you want to earn - £50/60k pa is achievable on your own.
I knocked back 62 duplex accommodation in Jesmond and I still do work for that company. You must always be in control of your own future because these developers couldn’t give a toss about you.

 

[Dumbo]

Trust me I'm right on

One word Carrillion !
That’s all you need to know about going that next steps.
When they stop paying you and your looking out your office window wondering who is going to be knocking on your door today , remember it was you not your family that wanted the stress, the debt, the bailiffs...
How much money do you want to earn - £50/60k pa is achievable on your own.
I knocked back 62 duplex accommodation in Jesmond and I still do work for that company. You must always be in control of your own future because these developers couldn’t give a toss about you.

arent they a Scottish rock band

 

[DanEwen]

One word Carrillion !
That’s all you need to know about going that next steps.
When they stop paying you and your looking out your office window wondering who is going to be knocking on your door today , remember it was you not your family that wanted the stress, the debt, the bailiffs...
How much money do you want to earn - £50/60k pa is achievable on your own.
I knocked back 62 duplex accommodation in Jesmond and I still do work for that company. You must always be in control of your own future because these developers couldn’t give a toss about you.

Haha when I get to 43,000 employees I will remember you bringing this up
I mean I have made 40k so far this year and no where near the amount I would like. If I don’t push myself how will I ever know what I am capable of achieving? I have never just settled for what I have I have always wanted more in many aspects of my life, it’s the main reason I have done so much with my life so far.

I do appreciate your input tho thanks

 

[Andy Allen]

Biggest issue you will have is finding decent tradesmen, we see countless adds on here advertising for good tilers....
Fact is most of the good ones are carving out there own good living, or will use you purely as a stop gap and be gone in the blink of an eye, subby's aren't loyal, why should they be.., soon as the cushy work and money drys up they will be gone.
I've been there and got the T-shirt...

 

[DanEwen]

Biggest issue you will have is finding decent tradesmen, we see countless adds on here advertising for good tilers....
Fact is most of the good ones are carving out there own good living, or will use you purely as a stop gap and be gone in the blink of an eye, subby's aren't loyal, why should they be.., soon as the cushy work and money drys up they will be gone.
I've been there and got the T-shirt...

Your right Andy. This will be my biggest problem. I don’t need the best, quickest or most loyal. I will need lads who are willing to work to make decent money. If they are getting good money and decent work why would they leave ? As an employer it’s my job to get them this work. If I don’t have the work why would I want them staying around ? If work picks back up and the cushy money starts again am sure they would come back.
Paying lads day rates is bullshit aswell unless it’s fiddly work they are doing. I always got payed by the hour or day rate and it’s crap. I will be paying lads by the metre, it encourages them to do more. If they can see how much they are making it drives them to work harder from my experience.

 

[Dumbo]

But after you've had your cut their metre rate may not be so clever

 

[Martyn Leeds]

Depends how much experience you've got in the commercial work?

I'd recommend subbying to another firm 1st to properly get the hang of the Commercial world & how it works, or maybe a few different firms, to get a mix of good & bad experiences..

I've done the domestic to commercial transition myself..

 

[DanEwen]

Depends how much experience you've got in the commercial work?

I'd recommend subbying to another firm 1st to properly get the hang of the Commercial world & how it works, or maybe a few different firms, to get a mix of good & bad experiences..

I've done the domestic to commercial transition myself..

Well your just the man to talk to lol
Thanks for the message Martyn.
I worked on Bellway and Persimmons homes for 7 years for a company. Have done 12 high end apartments and 62 student accommodation for myself. Recently I have done more work on Bellways for another firm. My time in Australia all we done were shopping centres, shops etc so large areas 400m2 plus I have done a lot in my 16 years as a tiler.
The work isn’t an issue it’s programs, deadlines etc
Any information you can give would be greatly appreciated

 

[peteablard]

I've done a lot of work for shop fitting firms over the years and have never had a serious problem with the programs they set. The decent ones have been doing it for years so know realistically how long things take. Occasionally there will be urgent ones that might need an extra man or 2 to push it along quicker. As mentioned above the biggest problem will be payment terms, especially if you're supplying materials and your accounts need paying before you get paid.

 

[DanEwen]

I've done a lot of work for shop fitting firms over the years and have never had a serious problem with the programs they set. The decent ones have been doing it for years so know realistically how long things take. Occasionally there will be urgent ones that might need an extra man or 2 to push it along quicker. As mentioned above the biggest problem will be payment terms, especially if you're supplying materials and your accounts need paying before you get paid.

Thanks for the reply Pete
Yes that’s something I will have to be careful about with payment terms and paying for materials. The student apartments I done payment term was every two weeks which was fine but if am having to wait 4 weeks plus that might be an issue. Unless some agreement can be made that they can pay for materials up front. But probably not likely.
I was a bit worried about keeping up with 62 units but I was tiling them faster than they could build them lol. I am normally very good at knowing how much I can get done in a certain time frame.

Appreciate the message