Tiles Cracked On All Hardiebacker Joins

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Bathfix Bob

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I tiled an L shape bathroom floor 5 months ago and long cracks have appeared at 800mm centres striaght over the Hardiebacker joins.

I've never had any cracks through tiles since 6 years ago when i used to tile on 12mm ply.

The tiles are 300mm British ceramic.

House was built 1984, standard 18mm floorboards which I securely screwed down, deflection free.
Hardiebacker was laid onto rapidset flexible addy (Larson) and staggered over floorboards, I always end Hardie half way along a floorboard.

Screwed down fully including extra screws on the edges and then tiled with Ultra fast set.
Its a method that has never failed in 6 years apart from this floor.
The only thing is up to now I've just been taping and filling the joins with plasterboard scrim tape, but I'm going to switch to the thicker type after this.

Cannot work out why this floor should fail and all the others havent, there are no leaks anywhere, no RSJ underneath, no recent work.
 
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T

Time's Ran Out

It's the tiles!
30x30 British ceramic that state they are suitable for no shoe floors!!
They are a soft glaze/wall tile biscuit that IMHO should not be used on floors.
Even if there is no movement in the floor ( and in this case there must be a small amount) they will crack on these seams. I'd insist I would only fix these over Ditra in a bathroom.
Unless you got a disclaimer it's still your fault.
 
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S

Spud

I have had similar problems in the past with hardi , 2 different floors first one was 12mm hardi over floor boards stuck with rapid and screwed down then ufh cable latexed in with fibre reinforced latex the tiles were also ceramic and cracked through the hardi joints ,mit remedied it by lifting the tiles then put Ditra over the sub floor which was sound but had suffered shrinkage , there was a small leak from the shower seal but not enough to cause the problem I saw,
My guess was the water from the adhesive under the hardi and the water from the latex was absorbed by the hardi and which swelled up the tiles were fitted too soon over the floor as the floor dried the hardi shrunk back and caused the cracking
Second one
12 mm hardi over floor boards stuck with rapid and screwed down with turbo gold screws scrim tape then tiled with rapid floor dropped away about 6mm which was picked up with adhesive cheap ceramic floor tiles and a few cracked
My solution now is to seal hardi both side before fitting with SBR as I believe it swells then shrinks from the water content and use anti fracture matting on softer tiles like ceramic or encaustic
 
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John Benton

John Benton

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From the Hardibacker Website

What is Cement Backerboard?

HardieBacker® is a cement backerboard for tile and stone to be used as a replacement for plasterboard or plywood. It contains MouldblockTM Technology, giving you superior moisture and mould resistance. HardieBacker® provides a dimensionally stable cement bonding surface that won’t warp, swell, rot, or deteriorate even in the wettest conditions. It is available in 6mm and 12mm sheets and provides the best bonding surface for cement based tile adhesive. HardieBacker® 6mm with EZ Grid® has a recessed fastening pattern to make installation even easier. HardieBacker® is the #1 cement board in the world.
 
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John Benton

John Benton

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I had one in a very small en-suite, only 2.5m tiled floor area, one the the tiles had a straight hairline crack across it, lifted the tile and it wasn't even on a joint, the 6mm board had just just a fine crack that had transferred through the tile. No other problems just that one tile. Very strange.
 
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John Benton

John Benton

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Stef said:
That is a strange one John.
I've still to go look at a floor that has a hairline crack in it.
Hardie fitted (not by me) then got informed it was getting a heat mat, I fitted this & slc.
Then they told me marble was being fitted, I told them to decouple but they wouldn't pay the extra for it & now there is a crack running the length of the bathroom.
Click to expand...

Didn't investigate it any further other than replacing tile and that was a while ago and not heard anything back. No idea to this day how it got a crack in the middle of a board that only affected one tile
 
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S

Stef

Bathfix Bob said:
Thanks for the replies guys, the floor was solid, with my floors I probably spend 70% of the time with the prep. Every floorboard screwed down with 50mm screws.

Since this I've started using the proper harie tape rather than plasterboard tape, there were 3mm gaps between the boards.
Click to expand...
I don't think you done anything wrong, I still think it's the tile.
Do you know the tile name or have pictures of them?
As I said I've used these "Floor" tiles & they aren't suitable for their intended use.
 
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John Benton

John Benton

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Stef said:
I don't think you done anything wrong, I still think it's the tile.
Do you know the tile name or have pictures of them?
As I said I've used these "Floor" tiles & they aren't suitable for their intended use.
Click to expand...

I fitted some of these ceramic tiles and before I did, the first thing I did after seeing them was read the box, that confirmed they were suitable for the floor, and then I rang the supplier to make sure they are happy that they would be fixed to a floor. Thirdly I did stress to the customer that they could fail and that I would not be held responsible. I did take photos all the way through the floor fixing installation as proof that they had a solid bed and tiles were back buttered. They haven't failed, yet!!!
 
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T

Time's Ran Out

I've been tiling 43 years and today I've scrabbled a anhydrite screed, primed it with tile master 1:3 primer, fixed Ditra with tile master anhydrite adhesive and tomorrow we fix porcelain with a cement based adhesive - also by tile master.
Why - because that's the best way to do it. It's called progress and keeping up with technical advances in our trade.
I can count the no of issues I've had with floors on one hand since I started tiling, from sand /cement through ardion 90 admixes and now the all in one super adhesives of the 21st century.
It's just about doing the job right and not doing it because you've always done it that way.
Today's plywood isn't nearly as good as 30 years ago when that was the norm. 40 years ago I fixed quarry tiles with sand /cement on chicken mesh and waterproof building paper over t&g floorboards. 40 years ago I wasn't fixing limestone of 15-20mm to a new screed, with or without under floor heating.
Tiles crack for a reason. In this thread I believe it's the quality of the tile not being able to have the tensile strength to take a wooden substrate.
But what do I know.
 
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M

moomarine

I agree that it is more likely the tiles. I also only use plasterboard tape and never had problems. The only thing I do different is use non flexible adhesive between the hardiebacker and the floorboards as I'm sure I read on the hardie website that ur supposed to use non flexi because it's to create a solid non flexible bed under the board and the main part designed to hold it down is the screws? Correct me if I'm wrong though?
 
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B

Bill

timeless john said:
I've been tiling 43 years and today I've scrabbled a anhydrite screed, primed it with tile master 1:3 primer, fixed Ditra with tile master anhydrite adhesive and tomorrow we fix porcelain with a cement based adhesive - also by tile master.
Why - because that's the best way to do it. It's called progress and keeping up with technical advances in our trade.
I can count the no of issues I've had with floors on one hand since I started tiling, from sand /cement through ardion 90 admixes and now the all in one super adhesives of the 21st century.
It's just about doing the job right and not doing it because you've always done it that way.
Today's plywood isn't nearly as good as 30 years ago when that was the norm. 40 years ago I fixed quarry tiles with sand /cement on chicken mesh and waterproof building paper over t&g floorboards. 40 years ago I wasn't fixing limestone of 15-20mm to a new screed, with or without under floor heating.
Tiles crack for a reason. In this thread I believe it's the quality of the tile not being able to have the tensile strength to take a wooden substrate.
But what do I know.
Click to expand...
X7 and ardion 90 would still be hard to beat for sticking strength....I think I still have some stuck on my hands!
 
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S

Stef

moomarine said:
I agree that it is more likely the tiles. I also only use plasterboard tape and never had problems. The only thing I do different is use non flexible adhesive between the hardiebacker and the floorboards as I'm sure I read on the hardie website that ur supposed to use non flexi because it's to create a solid non flexible bed under the board and the main part designed to hold it down is the screws? Correct me if I'm wrong though?
Click to expand...
You are correct, the adhesive is only designed as a gap filler but if I'm fixing to a wooden substrate then I use a flex adhesive as it sits better in my head.
Try ripping Hardie back out after it's been fixed & see if it's only the screws that hold it in place, it ain't budging.
Hardie is not a new product, been around 20years roughly, it may be a new product to some but not others.
I've never had a failure with Hardie & ive lost count of the number of boards I've fitted & tiled to.
 
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B

Bathfix Bob

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When I get round to sorting this I need a plan of action.

The first will be to somehow get the cracked tiles up (never done this on Hardie) and then to maybe try some aluminium mesh on the joins and basically retile and hope for the best.

Or to rip everything out and start again with different tiles. Its about 4 msq but it won't be an easy job.

I need to ring British ceramic and ask them why they are selling such soft floor tiles which I expect are only suitable for concrete/screed floors mainly but how was I to know this?

Am i supposed to refuse to fit these tiles again?
 
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J

Joseph Kover

timeless john said:
It's the tiles!
30x30 British ceramic that state they are suitable for no shoe floors!!
They are a soft glaze/wall tile biscuit that IMHO should not be used on floors.
Even if there is no movement in the floor ( and in this case there must be a small amount) they will crack on these seams. I'd insist I would only fix these over Ditra in a bathroom.
Unless you got a disclaimer it's still your fault.
Click to expand...
I know those tiles, fitted twice. Since then whenever customers want to buy that tiles I speak out of it. On the box says crack resistant, however only during the fitting 6 of them were cracked. Poor quality, sometimes there is up to 2mm difference in tile sizes. Dont buy ever
 
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