Tiling Standards

[Chelly]

“Fitter’s washes his hands of it”
How can he, surely he is the one responsible as he was the one who fitted it.

You would think, however they all think he has done a great job

 

[acaciaguy]

I really wouldn’t know, I will ask this also.

Please do. That is in the British standards as updated in 2018

 

[Boggs]

You would think, however they all think he has done a great job

If you can produce work to that standard and get a pat on the back I am going to work for them.

 

[Italy]

Thank you so much Paul, and the party is still going strong , will definitely be sending this information to them. You have all be such a great help thank you!

sorry, i was wrong

 

[Italy]

Sorry, bit late to the party on this one, but here goes:

BS5385 part 1-2018 - 7.1.5 Setting out
Unsightly cut tiles should be avoided and joints should be of a uniform width, true to a line, continuous without steps: allowance should be made for an adequate width of joint. Cut course, both vertical and horizontal, should be:
a) kept to a minimum
b) determined in advance
c) as large as possible
d) arranged in the least prominent locations

Where wall surfaces are interrupted by features, e.g. windows, access panels or sanitary fittings, the tile fixer should seek guidance from the designer as to the setting out to be adopted; similar guidance might be required in the positioning of movement joints, since they are predominant and could determine the setting out pattern.

Horizontal joints and cut courses should be positioned depending on several factors, of which the following are examples.
1) Tiled areas that adjoin or are adjacent should be set out so that horizontal joints are aligned
2) The upper and/or lower extremities of the wall might not be level, requiring a course or courses to be cut with a raking edge. Wherever possible, the horizontal joints should be positioned so that the whole of the rake can be taken up within the height of the tile in the cut course.
3) If it is thought desirable to align a joint with a feature, this becomes the setting out point and might initiate the need for, and frequently dictate the location of, cut courses elsewhere.
4) To ensure the rows are truly horizontal, a level line should be established to position the starting course. This line should be continuous across all tile surfaces.

should, could, where possible.......
seems very vague
very different from uni standards.
they must be is better than they should.
or is the translator wrong?

 

[Chelly]

Please do. That is in the British standards as updated in 2018

Will let you know how it goes

 

[Balloo]

I'm pretty sure that it's not in British standards to start a full tile from the bath. @Paul C. Could confirm this.
The transitions should be a silicone joint which should be in British standards. It's a bad job and I think they're lying about the B. S.

Absolutely nonsense and misinformation BS is not a about that , its only a guideline for standard practice .

 

[Spare Tool]

Absolutely nonsense and misinformation BS is not a about that , its only a guideline for standard practice .

We know...but it is good practice to follow it

 

[Balloo]

I look at all trades and the crap they dish out , and a tiler is caught out by a crap ceiling not level nor probably walls plumb , and the whole world condemns the job .
take a look at yourselves is this really worth a dispute .
ok he should have checked the cuts to ceiling but seriously some of the dib and dab jobs on floors is more significant obviously because of the cost of fixing broken tiles.

 

[hmtiling]

I look at all trades and the crap they dish out , and a tiler is caught out by a crap ceiling not level nor probably walls plumb , and the whole world condemns the job .
take a look at yourselves is this really worth a dispute .
ok he should have checked the cuts to ceiling but seriously some of the dib and dab jobs on floors is more significant obviously because of the cost of fixing broken tiles.

I certainly wouldn't let it slide if it was my house. Are you saying you would?

 

[Dougs Third Go]

could the ceiling be battened and lowered?

 

[Tile Shop]

I look at all trades and the crap they dish out , and a tiler is caught out by a crap ceiling not level nor probably walls plumb , and the whole world condemns the job .
take a look at yourselves is this really worth a dispute .
ok he should have checked the cuts to ceiling but seriously some of the dib and dab jobs on floors is more significant obviously because of the cost of fixing broken tiles.

"Caught out".... He wouldn't have been if he'd planned it correctly instead of being lazy and assuming a full tile from a convenient point would be ok. Setting out and good preparation is a tilers job, part of the service. Either the ceiling could have been sorted, tiles laid out to suit a bigger cut and less of an eye-sore, or have a discussion with the customer how to proceed, stick it in their court... Not wing it and say "sorry, best I could do".

So taking a look at myself as you asked and yes, I would still dispute. It looks arse. Aside from practicality, aesthetics is a huge part of why tiles are used. And that is certainly not aesthetically pleasing to me.

 

[Perry]

Have made the mistake when I first started but removed them and redone it.

 

[Tim Saunders]

I'm guessing the installer was on a price or on a time...I've always taken my time setting out purposely to avoid problems like this..if you've got a room with a bath, couple of windows and maybe a shower tray then it can take a while to get your head round how it's going to work out and I always discuss the layout with the client beforehand to make sure they're happy before I start fixing

 

[acaciaguy]

I'm guessing the installer was on a price or on a time...I've always taken my time setting out purposely to avoid problems like this..if you've got a room with a bath, couple of windows and maybe a shower tray then it can take a while to get your head round how it's going to work out and I always discuss the layout with the client beforehand to Makel sure they're happy before I start fixing

Fully agree Tim. I find it the most interesting / stressful part. Especially with small tiles. Take your time. Check and re check and it works out fine. Also. There is usually a compromise somewhere. As you say check with client. Get them to sign off on all final decisions

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Ask the client how to set the room out!
That’s why they are paying you - to do a professional job.
Clients away on holiday, that’s okay I’ll send him a photo of how it’s going to look - he’s going to be really confident in your ability.
What’s been done is sh*te and these chancers do our trade no favours.

 

[acaciaguy]

I agree John. I advise clients on what I wil do and look best. However they are the ones that have to look at it forever. If they are happy i am

To avoid any conflation of posts. I agree John the work op posted is rubbish

 

[peterwhayward]

I would say that almost all of my bathroom jobs have a cut or trimmed tile at the bath ( or shower tray)to avoid that awful finish at ceiling level or anywhere else.

 

[Soso]

Hello all,

I have a query regarding the British standards. I note that they say the following below about notched towelling method. What is confusing me is the bit about 50% contact. Surely this is 50% while its being placed on the wall but that the twisting and sliding action should result in 100% coverage ? I have a builder trying to justify dot and dab based on this wording. Or trying to justify not covering the whole tile.

Also, can i also assume that 50% contact still means that 100% of the wall should be covered in adhesive...the 50% is just the ribs sticking out of the adhesive from trowelling?

Second question is that i just need to be able to explain the difference between back buttering and dot and dab in layman terms for a judge. Can anyone help me ?

Notched trowelling method
Adhesives should be applied to the background with a trowel as a floated coat, the adhesive should be pressed into the surface, and combed through with a suitably designed notched trowel of the type recommended by the adhesive manufacturer: this gives a series of ribs into which the dry tiles should be pressed with a twisting or sliding action; this operation has to be carried out correctly to ensure that the adhesive wets the back of the tile and achieves an area of contact of at least 50%, spread evenly over the back of the tile.
Whatever type of trowel is used, it should apply the adhesive
in a manner such that the finished bed thickness is no greater than that recommended by the manufacturer and that maximum practical contact between tile and adhesive is achieved.
The period of time during which tiles can be adequately bedded after spreading the adhesive is approximately 20 min but this varies according to the prevailing atmospheric conditions. It is important that more adhesive should not be spread on the wall than can be covered with tiles within the open time.
NOTE 1 The amount of adhesive used and the height of the ribs obtained are governed by the angle at which the trowel is held against the surface. The amount of contact is also dependent on the twisting or sliding of the tiles as they are pressed onto the ribs of adhesive.
NOTE 2 It is good practice to remove a tile occasionally as fixing proceeds to check that adequate contact and wetting is being maintained with the adhesive.

 

[Tile Shop]

BS5385 part 1, 2018
7.1.2 - Bedding materials:
blah blah....
Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique.

So important, they repeat it in 7.2.1.6 - Tile joints
Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique.

Think your 50% spread is also out of date:
6.2.3.1 - General
Tiles with a surface area of 0.1 m2, should be solidly bedded.
Tiles with a surface area of less than 0.1 m2, but which weigh more per square metre than 70% of the background's capacity to carry the weight, should be solidly bedded.

Your exact wording above from 7.2.1.5.1 Notched Trowelling method, "this operation has to be carried out correctly to ensure that the adhesive wets the back of the tile and achieves an area of contact of at least 50%, spread evenly over the back of the tile". - This sentence was removed in the last 2018 update.

So yeah, your builder is wrong! Sack him and get yourself someone who knows what they are doing.

 

[Dumbo]

Have you a failure or are worried about future failure .
But as above if he is still working stop him ..
What is the value of your work if it several thousand it may be worth getting a tta report on the work.

 

[Old Mod]

I’m so glad you saw this @Paul C.
I knew I’d seen this written somewhere, and was about to go hunting.

 

[Soso]

BS5385 part 1, 2018
7.1.2 - Bedding materials:
blah blah....
Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique.

So important, they repeat it in 7.2.1.6 - Tile joints
Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique.

Think your 50% spread is also out of date:
6.2.3.1 - General
Tiles with a surface area of 0.1 m2, should be solidly bedded.
Tiles with a surface area of less than 0.1 m2, but which weigh more per square metre than 70% of the background's capacity to carry the weight, should be solidly bedded.

Your exact wording above from 7.2.1.5.1 Notched Trowelling method, "this operation has to be carried out correctly to ensure that the adhesive wets the back of the tile and achieves an area of contact of at least 50%, spread evenly over the back of the tile". - This sentence was removed in the last 2018 update.

So yeah, your builder is wrong! Sack him and get yourself someone who knows what they are doing.

Believe it or not Paul, this builder is arguing that he did the work in May 2018 and therefore the June 2018 version of the text which came out in june itself doesn't apply and he wouldn't have known about it. So he is trying to warp what the sentence i the bsi 2009 version which is the 50% coverage....while happily ignoring the words (spread evenly on the back of the tile).

My assumption, and this is what i need help on a little is that this 50% is the ribs a notched trowel would create. The wall would be covered in adhesive too. And when the tile is pushed into the ribs, it will spread and cover 100% of the tile ?

 

[Tony_C]

Think of back buttering as you would butter toast, skimming a thin layer over it. Not dabbing 5 blobs

EDIT:

This isn't to replace serating the wall/floor. It's to help with better coverage also when setting the tile into the ribs. I should have added that

 

[Soso]

Think of back buttering as you would butter toast, skimming a thin layer over it. Not dabbing 5 blobs

OMG Tony, that is perfect !!! I hadn't even thought of it that way but that would make anyone understand !!! Thank you so so much

 

[Soso]

Have you a failure or are worried about future failure .
But as above if he is still working stop him ..
What is the value of your work if it several thousand it may be worth getting a tta report on the work.

Thanks jcrtiling. We are in court at the moment sadly. Been ongoing for a year and I think this person is likely to only stop all this if the TTA do a report - completely agree

 

[J Sid]

BS 5385-1:2009
7.2.1.5 Application of adhesive and tiles
7.2.1.5.1 Notched trowelling method For situations where dry conditions prevail after tiling is completed, the notched trowelling method should be used. The final bed thickness of the cement-based adhesive should not exceed 3 mm; if it is used at a thickness greater than this, excessive stresses might develop possibly resulting in cracking of the tiles and/or adhesion failure. The adhesive should be applied to the surface as a floated coat with a trowel, pressing the adhesive into the surface, to give a bed
thickness of approximately 3 mm, which should then be combed through with a notched trowel of the type recommended by the adhesive manufacturer: this gives a series of ribs into which the dry tiles should be pressed with a twisting or sliding action; this operation has to be carried out correctly to ensure that the adhesive wets the back of the tile and achieves an area of contact of at least 50%, spread evenly over the back of the tile. Tiles should be fixed before surface drying of the ribbed adhesive bed prevents the adhesive wetting the back of the tiles: the open time varies according to the prevailing atmospheric conditions and is usually about 20 min; it is important not to spread more adhesive on the wall than can be covered with tiles within the open time of the adhesive.
7.2.1.5.2 Buttering method The buttering method can be used for occasional awkward tiling positions, e.g. around openings and restricted areas where a notched trowel cannot be used; where this technique has to be adopted, the adhesive should be spread evenly over the whole of the back of each dry tile with a trowel. The bed thickness should be slightly greater than the final thickness required so that when each tile is pressed or tapped firmly into position the correct thickness is achieved. The thickness should not be greater than the maximum recommended by the manufacturer of the adhesive. Care should be taken to ensure that as far as possible no voids are left behind the tiles.
7.2.1.5.3 Notched trowelling and buttering method The notched trowelling and buttering method combines 7.2.1.5.1 and 7.2.1.5.2 and should be used for fixing large tiles (3.4) and tiles with ribbed, deep keyed or heavy buttoned back profiles. A thin coating of adhesive buttered over the backs should fill the deep keys before placing the tiles in position on the combed adhesive bed. There should be no significant increase in the bed thickness. NOTE This bedding method aims to achieve a solid bed

 

[Dumbo]

Other than the builder doing it wrong what are the problems that you actually have

 

[Tile Shop]

Sorry to bring this up late, but can we just clarify that this is a wall installation and not floor?

Also is it a wet or dry area?

 

[Soso]

BS 5385-1:2009
7.2.1.5 Application of adhesive and tiles
7.2.1.5.1 Notched trowelling method For situations where dry conditions prevail after tiling is completed, the notched trowelling method should be used. The final bed thickness of the cement-based adhesive should not exceed 3 mm; if it is used at a thickness greater than this, excessive stresses might develop possibly resulting in cracking of the tiles and/or adhesion failure. The adhesive should be applied to the surface as a floated coat with a trowel, pressing the adhesive into the surface, to give a bed
thickness of approximately 3 mm, which should then be combed through with a notched trowel of the type recommended by the adhesive manufacturer: this gives a series of ribs into which the dry tiles should be pressed with a twisting or sliding action; this operation has to be carried out correctly to ensure that the adhesive wets the back of the tile and achieves an area of contact of at least 50%, spread evenly over the back of the tile. Tiles should be fixed before surface drying of the ribbed adhesive bed prevents the adhesive wetting the back of the tiles: the open time varies according to the prevailing atmospheric conditions and is usually about 20 min; it is important not to spread more adhesive on the wall than can be covered with tiles within the open time of the adhesive.
7.2.1.5.2 Buttering method The buttering method can be used for occasional awkward tiling positions, e.g. around openings and restricted areas where a notched trowel cannot be used; where this technique has to be adopted, the adhesive should be spread evenly over the whole of the back of each dry tile with a trowel. The bed thickness should be slightly greater than the final thickness required so that when each tile is pressed or tapped firmly into position the correct thickness is achieved. The thickness should not be greater than the maximum recommended by the manufacturer of the adhesive. Care should be taken to ensure that as far as possible no voids are left behind the tiles.
7.2.1.5.3 Notched trowelling and buttering method The notched trowelling and buttering method combines 7.2.1.5.1 and 7.2.1.5.2 and should be used for fixing large tiles (3.4) and tiles with ribbed, deep keyed or heavy buttoned back profiles. A thin coating of adhesive buttered over the backs should fill the deep keys before placing the tiles in position on the combed adhesive bed. There should be no significant increase in the bed thickness. NOTE This bedding method aims to achieve a solid bed

Thank you Julian. I am hoping that the bit about "spread evenly over the back of the tile" and the fact that the entire wall needs to be covered in adhesive should be enough to bat this out. It's a shower area and there should be no voids and the areas should be solidly bedded which i believe part 4 of the standard also states. It's just that the 50% written here is mis-leading surely ?