Tuscan Levelling System - Tile Advice

[Rob Z]

We've been using TLS all week on a floor and walls, and I'm pleased to report that after I have pulled multiple tiles to check for coverage (after I had tightened the straps), the coverage was excellent and I didn't detect any indication that the ratcheting action of the gun had pulled the tile away from the thinset and left voids.

I'm slowly coming around from my initial skepticism of TLS, about which I was somewhat vocal about calling "bullsh*t" over at another forum several years ago when TLS debuted. TLS has also changed their sales pitch a bit and emphasize that the substrate has to be ready for tile and the tile setter has to know what he is doing (ie: TLS doesn't turn a novice into a master tile setter).

I'm paying about $0.30 per strap, and if I'm doing the math correctly, that is about 0.20 GBP each.

There's no question that it's improving speed for me, and yielding good results on reducing lippage. Probably the best thing is that it's reducing the amount of time fiddling around to get a tile set properly and flush with the adjacent tile, and then it's letting me to "set it and forget it", with the confidence that things are good to go and I can move on.

There are some definate irksome problems with the TLS, which I'll go over it anyone is interested. I have to get up early tomorrow for work, so I'll sign off now.

 

[Alan.P]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

Thanks Rob, that was my main worry, that they may pull tiles off the bed. But if you think they are OK, I might give this system a go

 

[DHTiling]

I am interested to hear all feedback Rob please..

 

[jay]

thanks Rob

 

[Daz]

Thanks Rob,

I, too, will be interested to hear your "full review" when you get time.

 

[Rob Z]

Hi Guys, I'm glad you're interested in hearing more. I just got in from work (long day !!) and I'm off to watch the playoff game*. I'll check back in tomorrow with more details.

*baseball, of course :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Rob Z]

Hi everyone,

I've never been busier with work than we are at the moment. Any free time I've had has been spent watching the World Series...so I haven't gotten the TLS review in for you yet.

I did take a bunch of photos with my phone, but the quality was terrible and I've deleted all of them.:mad2:

Here's a few thoughts about TLS to get us started:

What I don't like/what bugs me/minor issues:

1. Availability-there is only one retailer that I know of in my area that stocks TLS supplies. I've run short on straps and then had to race home in traffic to get the retailer before they close and get straps for the next days' work. I could buy them online, but always prefer to go local if I can.

2. The caps-the springs in the caps can either be defective from the factory or get worn out. What then happens is that the cap can be intially tightened securely, but then it will loosen within some number of minutes or even hours. This has caused problems because we missed this on various caps, and then the strap loosened and the tile didn't stay tightly bound with the neighboring tile, which then caused it to shift slightly. Our method is to now check multiple times the caps that we have tightened. When we find some that have loosened up, we tighten it again and if the cap is defective or worn out--we add another cap on top of the one already in place and tighten the two together.

As long as you catch all the ones that are loose, it's not a big deal and it doesn't take that much extra time. But it is a bit worrisome knowing that if something happens after the tile is set, then you might be looking at cutting out a piece or two to reset them.

3. Placement of the caps and straps-as per the instructions of TLS, straps and caps need to be placed ~2" from the corners. I'm guessing that they think if the straps are placed any closer to the corner there is a risk of cracking the corner of the tile when you break the straps out. For some stone, I'm sure this is a real concern. For some hard porcelains, probably not.

The placement of the straps and caps, in general, is a hassle because it forces us to change our usual habits of using levels and straight edges to check along grout joints. The thickness of the straps is 1/32", so if you want a grout joint thicker than that you must use spacers or wedges to hold the tiles apart. All of this stuff gets in the way and make the use of straight edges difficult.

We've had to adapt and and do more layout lines, and we now fire up one of the lasers to lay a line over the work to check for alignment. This takes time, especially when you have to get up, turn off the lights, turn on the laser, calibrate it, etc.

4. Keeping the joints clean-this is maybe the biggest PITA with the TLS. We use sponges, brushes, tuck pointer, margin trowels, pieces of cardboard, spacers, matches, shims and anything else that will do the job and try to meticulously keep the joints clean as we go.

Even with this effort, there is always thinset oozed in places that you can't get to, such as under the caps. We just used three Laticrete thinsets to set tile (220, 253, and 254). The first two are fairly easy to clean out of joints. The third one (254) is like steel once it has cured and is a real :mad2: to try and clean up.

This "ooze-up" problem is important to remember when you choose the setting material for the job.

5. Added time to prep and use TLS materials-this might well NOT be a negative but simply a trade-off with time gained with faster production.

The straps need to be soaked prior to use. The instructions say it's a one-time only requirement, but we have noticed that the straps seem to behave better when we soak them before each installation.

It takes time to assemble the straps with caps.

It takes time to place the straps, tighten the caps, clean the thinset, break the straps and clean everything up and inspect and put the caps away.

6. When you come to a point where you are stopping for the day, it is imperative that you CAREFULLY prepare small voids under the tiles so there will be spaces to slide straps in the next day. Alternatively, you can set straps under the last tiles and make sure they aren't sitting in such a way as the prevent the tiles on the next day from sitting in place properly (ask me how I know of these problems :incazzato: ).

It's important to ensure that there is thinset around the strap's base, even if this means adding some mortar directly in place with a margin trowel. This takes more time, and it's a bit more difficult to get the notched trowel to spread thinset in and around all the caps and straps that have been placed in position on surrounding tiles.

7. "Whoops"-If you over tighten a strap, it will break. If this strap is in the field of tile that is already set, then you have to either do without a strap or pull the tile up to get another strap in place. (Ask me how I know about this. :mad2: )

How will you know if you are overtightening a strap? Easy--it breaks. :lol: But with experience and getting used to the gun and the feel of the straps, you'll avoid accidental breakages after you use TLS for a while.

8. The "salespitch"-TLS has changed their marketing somewhat since they debuted ~3 years ago.

TLS will not:

1. serve as a remedy for bad substrates
2. compensate for a tile setter that doesn't knows what he is doing
3. fix tiles that are warped (ie: not flat)



By now, this sounds really negative...but wait until I talk about some of the positives. All-in-all, I like using TLS and will continue to do so. I'll have more later.

Dinner is ready. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[faithhealer]

great review Rob, enjoy your dinner

 

[Rob Z]

Thanks, John. I had duck....:drool5:

I meant to add to the review of the "negatives"...

I think the Tuscan Leveling System should be renamed Tuscan Alignment System, to be more accurate about what it will do.

I'll get to the "Positives" later this week.

 

[jay]

thanks Rob

 

[Rob Z]

Hi everyone, I keep waiting until I have plenty of time to type out a review, but that hasn't been happening lately because of too much work.

So, let me start with a few comments, and I'll add onto this when I can.

First, I have used all the models of the tightening gun that TLS sells. The cheap one costs about $100, and the premium one is over $300. It is WELL WORTH the money to get the more expensive one. Not only does it have more fine control (fewer or none accidentally broken straps), it's easier on your hand and, believe it or not, your hand will be less tired at the end of the day after using the better quality gun rather than the cheap one. I never thought this would be the case, but it does get to be a bit of a strain on the hand muscles, especially when breaking off hundreds of straps.

Second, once the straps are set and tightened for an area of tile, the ENTIRE field of tile can be adjusted. I have now taken to setting multiple tiles, strapping and tightening them, and then use a straight edge to shift the entire field to final placement. I'm taliing about moving stuff 1/16" or an 1/8", NOT more than that and not so much that it's messing with the thinset underneath. THis might speed things up a bit and will be a trade-off for the added time spent messing with the straps.

Third, as I said above in an earlier post, I think this product should be renamed as "Tuscan Alignment System". It aligns wonderully well, but will not make any LEVEL. That's up to you to do either with substrate prep or setting techniques, or a mix of both. THese straps and caps, if used properly, will get the tiles flushed up with each other about as good as can be done. It won't ever get an installationn to be as mirror-flat as a stone installation that has been ground-in-place, but it can be darn close to it.

BTW, and this is important to note: This only works as well as the tile is flat on the top. If it's warped, then TLS is only going to help you to "split the differnce", and will get it as close as can be.

Fourth, TLS straps and caps virtually eliminate tiles from moving or sagging after you've moved on to other work. I use some high-flex, high-latex content thinsets, and one annoying thing about them is they have an elastic "rubber band" sort of property. Tiles that are set with these materials will "creep" back in the direction from which the tile was originally set and then slid into position. Jay will know one of these thinsets: Laticrete 254. The TLS straps, when used properly, "tie" the tile into the other tiles, and with increase mass the tiles stop moving or sagging. The one thinset we use that won't sag whatsoever is Laticrete 220 medium bed, but it's not appropriate for all installations.

I tried to get photos of us using the straps, but they didn't come out very well (I used my camera on the phone). I'll try to remember to get some shots with the good camera next time we use TLS.

Fifth, the cost of TLS. There is a lot of moaning and groaning about the cost of TLS. The gun and the caps are a fixed cost, and can be reused on many jobs.

The straps are consumables, and need to be included in each job. They are about $0.30 each. I just did a bathroom which required slightly more than one bucket of straps (500 per bucket). A bucket of 500, with sales tax, costs $157.00. So it cost me about $160/165 for straps for the bathroom. I charged the customer and they were happy to pay for it...but even if it were a job where I couldn't have openly charged for the straps, in my opinion they are worth it. If these save me and my guys only a couple hours worth of labor, then it's a break-even thing. Anything more than that, and it's gravy.

Here are a few pics that my customer took and sent to me. One thing that was nice about TLS was that the walls were out of plumb on the two ends of the shower base. I wanted to float these walls to true them up, but that was out of the question because of clearances for the plumbing fixtures and some other issues. So, these walls were prepped with CBU's. WIth TLS, I was able to set the tile in the line above the curb and get it virtually plumb. The straps helped to hold it all together, with no sagging, shifting, or crushing of spacers, until the thinset cured. (these tiles were almost 1/2" and very heavy).

The customers spent hours sorting the veining and had it all laid out for us, which was great because I didn't have to do any thinking.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Rob Z]

You'll see in one picture that there is no door trim next to the vanity...that door will get installed this week.

 

[Rob Z]

Another thing I learned on this job...the Festool Rotex sander, with the PLATIN abrasive set (from 400-4000 grit), can be used to polish and bullnose glass. That's what was done so the glass could turn the corner outside the shower.

 

[DHTiling]

Looks great rob..