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E

EdinTiler

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So I'm having trouble with a customer relating to grout (Bal Micromax)
I have tiled 70 sq metres of Porcelanosa 60 x 60 polished porcelain tiles on a job.
The customer supplied everything apart from the floor https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ and primer. They went to CTD in Stirling to find an appropriate grout to compliment the colour of the tile and came back with Bal Micromax 'Manilla' which was the closest colour to the laid tile as they could get.
As usual, it was mixed and applied to the ratio stated on the reverse of the bag of grout with no problems. I find that Micromax has a tendency to slump so I go over it twice to bring the grout up to acceptable level between the tiles. The tiles are rectified but have a 1.5/2mm chamfer around the top edge of the tile.
Approx 25 metres was grouted, wiped down and left to dry. The customer returned from being out and stated that the colour was not what she had told it would dry to and was not the same colour as the grout They said that the sales assistant in CTD had said that the grout would dry darker than the colour of the unmixed grout powder in the bag. I told them that this was rarely the case and that they should take this up with the manager of the branch of CTD that they bought the product from.
Needless to say, they asked me to remove the grout so they could return to CTD and pick something more suiting to the tile. They then came back with Micromax 'pebble'.
I removed the existing grout with the multi tool, swept and hoovered the grout joints. Washed them down and then went back over the grout joints again using the same method until all existing grout was removed and grout joints were back to the same state as before the grout was applied in the first instance. I told the customer what the extra cost that would be incurred for time spent rectifying a mistake that was not mine.
I then mixed to specification the new Micromax 'pebble' and applied it appropriately. This time the grout dried lighter than the colour in the bag yet again but also this time it had dried patchy.
They told me that this was down to my incompetence so I then got the Bal Technical support out to take a look and take samples of both grouts away to test for colour tolerance and if the mixing ration used was correct. No problem for myself as I only ever use tile products to the exact specifications stated by the manufacturers.
The customer is refusing to acknowledge that I have done any extra work or that the initial grout they supplied to me was even chosen by themselves. This is nonsense as they picked and paid for both sets of grout themselves. I had absolutely no part in this process.
So when the customer pointed out that the 2nd lot of grout was wrong and that they also wanted this removed and replaced, I said that yet again, I needed to recompensated for my time and labour to rectify yet another mistake that was not of my making. The first thing to come out of their mouths was that they were not going to pay a penny regardless, so I walked off the job until a resolution could be reached by all parties involved.
I get a text message this morning, stating that the Bal rep phoned the customer back at the weekend and gave a verbal report to them saying that the grout discolouration and patchiness was down to an inconsistent mix (too much water to powder). I found this hard to believe as they wouldn't surely get back with any info unless their findings were rock solid and the rep had told us categorically that the tests would take 4-6wks due to the time of year and the backlog of other tests that were being carried out before ours. So I phoned the Bal head office and also the very rep who came out to the job and have been told that there has been no follow on correspondence whatsoever between Bal and the customer since he last site last week and they'll give me proof in writing to that effect. I knew this but needed proof myself before continuing any further with anything.
So the situation I'm in is that the customer won't pay me for the initial work or for rectifying the mistake/s that were not of my making.
There has been at least 3 sets of all types of trade on this job and I know for a fact others have left due to the same circumstances as myself. Being asked to do one thing, customer not being happy, re-doing it and not being paid for their time.
As the customer has lied to try and get the work done in time for the kitchen being fitted, it now renders our working relationship untenable and I am going to have to go through small claims to recoup what money I can from this job.
Any others here had similar problems? All suggestions/advice/questions on the matter are appreciated in advance.
EdinTiler
Thanks :)
 
OP
T

Tile Shop

If they are saying it is down to an inconsistent mix, and if you're sure you followed the instructions to the letter, maybe they need to revise their instructions.

We get quite a few issues with BAL grout going patchy. But if its too much water, this is efflorescence. The water content bringing the salts in the cement to the surface. Safe to say from this point on, you will get no assistance from the BAL. They've had their say unless you can argue your case with them.

Short of re-grouting with a different make, the only other option you have would be to use a mild solution of LTP Grout Stain Remover (or similar). Mop it over, scrub the joints, leave for 15 minutes, scrub again then rinse with clean water. That should take the patchiness away. If it doesn't try a stronger solution. If that also doesn't work, then re-grout it is.

As to who's at fault and who forks out for this work is for you and the customer to work out between yourselves. I can't advise on that one.

Good Luck and I hope you get it sorted.
 
OP
E

EdinTiler

Hi Paul. Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Appreciated.
It's not the sorting of the grout that's the problem here, it's the time it's taken to rectify issues that aren't of my making.
The customer even text me to say that the Bal rep had phoned over the weekend and given a verbal report to state that the mix was inconsistent due to too much/too little water, which is rubbish as I always mix to manufacturers recommendation.
I phoned the very rep and Bal head office this morning and they have stated categorically that no further correspondance has been had between them and said customer and that there's no way they would give a verbal report over the phone when the tests haven't been done yet. They have proof of this and are more than willing to state this officially if need be. The one thing the rep did say is that it's definitely not efflorescence because it's Micromax.
The fact the customer is lying to try and get the work finished speaks volumes about the type of people they are. I've been on to CAB and trading standards and they say I have a case to be answered which is good.
EdinTiler
 
OP
E

EdinTiler

Just so anyone else reading this knows. I've only walked off of one other job, which was site work, in the past 10 years. I have a good reputation and 99% of my work is through recommended word of mouth. I take great pride in my work as I'm sure all professional tilers on this forum do too and I want nothing more than to finish the job to total satisfaction as usual but I need paid for my time just like the rest of us.
EdinTiler
 

Andy Allen

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You must have the patience of a saint to have raked it out the first time.
Must admit I've stopped using bal grouts for this reason I find grout 3000 ten times better, no help now I know.
If it can be proven the patchy grout is not down to you then they won't have a leg to stand on, if it dose go the court route be warned a few tradesmen I know here tried this and the odds seem to be very much stacked in the customers favour......We all get jobs like this now and again and it can hit your confidence for six.....best way forward is to try and come to some kind of settlement even if it means more work but try I get at least some payment so your not flogging a dead horse.
 
OP
E

EdinTiler

Cheers for the reply Andy. As stated previously, I have no problem with any work to sort the patchy grout, no problem at all. The crux of the argument is that the customer will not pay for the initial work involved to remove, clean and replace the original grout that there was no problem with other than the colour. This was a choice made by the customer and they chose to ignore that I told them this would incur extra cost on top of the initial agreed price.
The money is not the issue, it's the principle of the whole thing. I'm up to my eyes in work and I'm fully booked until 2nd week in Feb so it's no great loss in the long term. I will get resolution to this regardless of how long it takes.
I've already been on to CAB and Trading Standards and they seem to think that there is a case to be answered so I'll find out on Wed what the score is and let you know. I'm more than hopefull that I'll recoup the majority, if not all of the money owed to me, it'll just take time.
 

CJ

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Pretty much everything goes AGAINST them. The fact that THEY chose the grout.....then changed it....twice. Then lied about a BAL rep report. That's almost fraud in my book.

If you can afford to carry it out, I would be tempted to take it all the way.

I'm a stubborn git that hates these kind of people, and would want payback........one way or another.
 
OP
E

EdinTiler

Thanks lads! Simple fact of the matter is that over 1 week before I left the job, the customer knew that I had said that there was extra money to be added to the job because of the grout situation. I also stated that if I had chosen, bought and applied the grout of my own volition, that I would be responsible for the extra time and cost incurred to rectify the mistake. She chose to let me go ahead with the removal and clean up of the grout and grout joints. Now whether she agreed to this or not, she was told what the score was. She tried to put joint blame on me by saying " but I showed you the grout and you said it suited the tile" This is correct but I can't be held responsible for it drying to a totally contrasting colour to the one in the bag or the showroom example she was shown. There was nothing wrong with the first grout, just the colour and that has nothing to do with me.
The major thing that pissed me off was that the Bal rep was there to sort out two separate issues : The colour contrast/tolerance of the initial grout and the reason behind the patchiness of the second grout. Once she had a solution to getting the second grout cleaned up and made good, she didn't want to know about the situation with the first grout, even though this was the crux of the situation in the first instance. This indicates to me that she was not willing to acknowledge what happened in the first place and, in turn, would not acknowledge that payment was required to fix the problem that was hers and not mine.
She is a fool because it would've been finished and polished up by last Saturday but she has chosen to keep no line of communication whatsoever, open with me.
To me, this renders the working relationship untenable.
As for the lying about the verbal report from the rep, Bal will give me proof, if need be, that no one from Bal has had any correspondance with her, verbal or otherwise, since the rep left site on Thurs avo.
Waiting to hear from Trading Standards tomorrow. I'll keep you all posted.
I've been told I have a cast to answer so will be investing to hear what they have to say. I've got all the Small Claims stuff sitting, ready to be posted to her but I'll wait to see what happens the morn
Cheers
 
OP
E

EdinTiler

Ps. It only costs £200 to lodge a Small Claims CCJ in Scotland so I am more than happy to take it all the way and see what I can get back.
The only people that have stopped the work being completed is the customer, and all because of their lack of understanding or knowledge of how trades work.
 

Andy Allen

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absolutely, my customers get shown the grout 3000 selection and get politely informed that's all there is to choose from! :)
Won't use anything else on a porcelain tile on the wall....if they wanted a different grout I wouldn't do the job...sounds petty but to me the finer details are the most important and some grouts just aren't up to the job...
 
OP
I

Italy

I had the same problem, all at macchie.ho solved fugafresca Mapei.
I believe that these issues be always in winter, slow filling, color be lighter, now I solve everything with Mapei Ultracolor
I always say you have customers who do not answer to filling that does not know, so buy what I say
I'm sorry for what happened to you
 
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