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chas

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Hi all i have expansion joints that are on the wrong side of door openings. Should i recut them or will 40mm makke a difference if i go over it. Its more of a issue as im using 1m×1m tile so not so handy to replace if they crack. Floor is also ufh.
Thanks charlie
 
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You need to follow the expansion from the subfloor up thru the tile. If you don't the tile WILL crack
Very often put in wrong place by the screeders (brainless idiots) and bad site management
 

chas

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You need to follow the expansion from the subfloor up thru the tile. If you don't the tile WILL crack
Very often put in wrong place by the screeders (brainless idiots) and bad site management
The problem is it will look soooooooo wrong since they are large format should i not open up a expansion on the correct side of door frame instead?
 
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NO
Ufh pipes will be going through the screed and you will damage them!
It will look fine with a colour matched silicon as a cold joint. Should almost be invisible if done well.
 
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I take it you have layed this size tile before?
Ufh commissioned?
Uncoupling membrane being used?
 

chas

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I take it you have layed this size tile before?
Ufh commissioned?
Uncoupling membrane being used?
Yeah all done.
Problem is aesthetically the client wont like the fact that i cannt run tile under door without a double cut. Got a 1.8m×0.9m wall tile to look forward to that has been asked to go brickbond i wonder how much of a bow will be on the tile ☹
 
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You'll need clips for them and a bloody straight wall
The floor tile will crack if you bridge the expansion. It really won't look bad with a colour matched silicon for the expansion joint.
Don't let the customer talk you into bridging the expansion, you will be back to change it and then you will have no choice but to do it right.
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Would lay 1.8x.9 brick bond either. Probably say on the box max 1/4 bond, check.
 
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Ajax123

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When you say on the wrong side. Which side are they?
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You need to follow the expansion from the subfloor up thru the tile. If you don't the tile WILL crack
Very often put in wrong place by the screeders (brainless idiots) and bad site management
Not necessarily brainless...2 things spring to mind. First at least there are joints in the screed and second the advice on joints in door thresholds says that the joint should go on the larger side so if you have a joint from a corridor into a room the joint will be placed on the room side of the threshold. The issue of course with that is that the tiles may want to extend to the corridor side of the threshold depending kn the placement of the the door itself. The screeder may well have got it right.
 

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When you say on the wrong side. Which side are they?
The expansion on a few doors is on the wrong side of the door frame but still within the door frame. So i was hoping a 40mm overhang shouldnt really effect tile as i also have anticrack matt installed aswell
 
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The expansion on a few doors is on the wrong side of the door frame but still within the door frame. So i was hoping a 40mm overhang shouldnt really effect tile as i also have anticrack matt installed aswell
Anti crack mat will be no good with horizontal movement only lateral movement. Bridging over the movement joint in the screed, which can and will have horizontal movement (if the two side of the joint have floors at different temperatures, as can happen for example) will crack the tiles running over them if fixed correctly.
I believe a good screeder in conjunction with the architect / designer should put the expansion joints in the floor under the doors, but what do i know I'm only a tiler, the person who ends up trying to may a floor look right, work correctly no matter what some muppet has done before me.
 

LEE MAC

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Couldn’t agree more with Julian. It’s laziness and bad management that screed joints aren’t below the door. At this point of the build there are drawings that if looked at would avoid the problem.
 

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Couldn’t agree more with Julian. It’s laziness and bad management that screed joints aren’t below the door. At this point of the build there are drawings that if looked at would avoid the problem.
Sorry but that's complete rubbish.
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The expansion on a few doors is on the wrong side of the door frame but still within the door frame. So i was hoping a 40mm overhang shouldnt really effect tile as i also have anticrack matt installed aswell
Anti crack matting will help as it will diffuse the movement across the joint. If it's only 40mm out from the tiling point if view that should be fine. I've seen this done many times.
 
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I've seen it done to many times and seen it fail many times. @chas its your choice, listen to tilers or a floor layer. Very best of luck if you choose to bridge it, read up about how a anti crack mat works and vertical movements it will not diffuse sadly. Wish they did, would make a tilers life easier
 

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Sorry but that's complete rubbish.
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Anti crack matting will help as it will diffuse the movement across the joint. If it's only 40mm out from the tiling point if view that should be fine. I've seen this done many times.
I bow to your knowledge of the chemistry of these screeds but I’m surprised that you think my statement is complete rubbish, how can it be?
In the real world how can it be argued that with a bit of thought a properly planned joint isn’t better beneath the door?
Horses for courses!
 

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I bow to your knowledge of the chemistry of these screeds but I’m surprised that you think my statement is complete rubbish, how can it be?
In the real world how can it be argued that with a bit of thought a properly planned joint isn’t better beneath the door?
Horses for courses!
Sorry bad day. Was a bit rude of me.

In terms of the physics putting the joint under the door depends entirely on which side of the door opening the door sits. The joint in the screed should always be placed on the side of the threshold which has the largest dimension in order to avoid a larger movement causing restraint. So if the door goes from a small corridor into a large living room the joint will be flush with the walls forming the threshold on the living room side.. if that door subsequently opens into the corridor it's likely to be on the corridor side and the joint is in the wrong place. If the door sits mid threshold the joint is still in the wrong place. Putting the screed joint mid threshold would be pointless as it would not work. It's not laziness that puts the joint there its physics. If the door sits the other side then it's always going to be wrong for the tile joint.

One solution I've seen work loads of times is to use a piece of anti fracture mat across the doorway bridging the joint. A sort if localise crack bridge. The tile stuck to that will allow the screed to move laterally without the tile itself moving sort if like a slip joint where starter bars are used in concrete. One side is stuck fast the other side slips so the concretd can move without fracturing. It's not how anticrack mat should be used as it should be across the whole floor and I doubt you would get a spec from a manufacturer for it but it has worked countless times.

It does rely on the screed being free from vertical movement.
 

chas

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Couldn’t agree more with Julian. It’s laziness and bad management that screed joints aren’t below the door. At this point of the build there are drawings that if looked at would avoid the problem.
I think the client may have changed how the door opens but its not the first time ive seen expansion not correct but id have thought the
Movement joihts in

Sorry bad day. Was a bit rude of me.

In terms of the physics putting the joint under the door depends entirely on which side of the door opening the door sits. The joint in the screed should always be placed on the side of the threshold which has the largest dimension in order to avoid a larger movement causing restraint. So if the door goes from a small corridor into a large living room the joint will be flush with the walls forming the threshold on the living room side.. if that door subsequently opens into the corridor it's likely to be on the corridor side and the joint is in the wrong place. If the door sits mid threshold the joint is still in the wrong place. Putting the screed joint mid threshold would be pointless as it would not work. It's not laziness that puts the joint there its physics. If the door sits the other side then it's always going to be wrong for the tile joint.

One solution I've seen work loads of times is to use a piece of anti fracture mat across the doorway bridging the joint. A sort if localise crack bridge. The tile stuck to that will allow the screed to move laterally without the tile itself moving sort if like a slip joint where starter bars are used in concrete. One side is stuck fast the other side slips so the concretd can move without fracturing. It's not how anticrack mat should be used as it should be across the whole floor and I doubt you would get a spec from a manufacturer for it but it has worked countless times.

It does rely on the screed being free from vertical movement.
Hi thanks for all the comments i have my own ideas of what i am going to do just was interested in having another opinions. I have done shopping centre refurbs previously where the new layout would have tiles falling short or past previous expansion and we had been advised that as long as it fell within a minimal distance that it should be fine. Similarly the ufh has been run in the house any some shrinkage/ movement has already occurred so im hoping that the width of 40mm will not cause a issue. I know it perhaps isnt what is correct but it will look betterand b4 anyone mentions i know it isnt always a good enough reason but it also important to keep the customer onside as ultimately they are the one who will pay and you have to give them what they want with a measure of advice that it can result in tile failure or not as can also be the case. Anyhow enjoy weekend lads
 

LEE MAC

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Movement joihts in

Sorry bad day. Was a bit rude of me.

In terms of the physics putting the joint under the door depends entirely on which side of the door opening the door sits. The joint in the screed should always be placed on the side of the threshold which has the largest dimension in order to avoid a larger movement causing restraint. So if the door goes from a small corridor into a large living room the joint will be flush with the walls forming the threshold on the living room side.. if that door subsequently opens into the corridor it's likely to be on the corridor side and the joint is in the wrong place. If the door sits mid threshold the joint is still in the wrong place. Putting the screed joint mid threshold would be pointless as it would not work. It's not laziness that puts the joint there its physics. If the door sits the other side then it's always going to be wrong for the tile joint.

One solution I've seen work loads of times is to use a piece of anti fracture mat across the doorway bridging the joint. A sort if localise crack bridge. The tile stuck to that will allow the screed to move laterally without the tile itself moving sort if like a slip joint where starter bars are used in concrete. One side is stuck fast the other side slips so the concretd can move without fracturing. It's not how anticrack mat should be used as it should be across the whole floor and I doubt you would get a spec from a manufacturer for it but it has worked countless times.

It does rely on the screed being free from vertical movement.
I can see what your saying. Most of the time I encounter joints that aren’t even square to the frame, the can run out 20mm in the width of a single door. In those cases I do as you’ve said and use a strip of anti fracture mat and put a joint in the tile in the middle of the subfloor joint, what else can you do. I’ve always got away with it so far.
Mapei use this method as a selling point in Mapetex.
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E6022530-14FC-4451-A58A-77C35D4A4DBE.jpeg
 

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