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IMPORTANT CHANGES TO BS 5385-1 WALL AND FLOOR tile

tile Standards | BS 5385​


As part of the five-year review of British Standards and reflecting changes within the tile industry since 2009 – BS 5385 Part 1: 2018 has now been published. One significant change made was to exclude the use of plywood as a background material for the direct fixing of ceramic wall and natural stone tiles.

Tiling Standards

Clause 6.1.2.7 Other sheets and boards (see also 6.2.3.3) now states:
“The use of sheets or boards that are subject to movement from changes in moisture content should be avoided. Plywood and other wood-based sheets or boards should not be used for direct tile”.

A significant uplift in the use of tile backer boards and a wide variation in quality of plywood available on the market has provided a solid case for the removal of plywood from the standards.

David Wilson, UK Head of Technical Services a member of the TTA Technical Committee said: “Previously it was recognised in BS5385 Part 1: 2009 that tile direct to plywood was possible, providing this was restricted to small areas and be “installed in such a way that they provide a [dimensional] stable and rigid background” the quality of plywood for tile purposes has decreased significantly with cheaper imports flooding the market.

“While higher quality external grade plywood is still available – it is significantly more expensive.

“It is important to consider though that that wood is a hygroscopic material which means that its moisture content will change dependent upon any changes in the environmental conditions on site. Therefore, dimensional stability of wood-based boards cannot be assured there is always a risk to installing ceramic or natural stone tiles onto plywood or other wood-based sheets,
Another technical consideration for wall tile is weight restrictions. Just as a side note at this point, if you don't have a clue what any of this is, then consider a tiling course, and research it well before paying any money. Plywood is deemed to have a maximum weight of tile per m² of 30 kg compared to proprietary tile backing boards which generally are capable of supporting heavier weights per m² of tile (As per table 3 of BS 5385-1: 2018).

British Wall and Floor tile Standards BS5385-1​


“A competitive tile backing board market means that prices are more attractive to tile fixers and contractors. This combined with the additional features and benefits of providing background for tile which are dimensional stable and resistant to moisture and thermal movement. “

However, while plywood is not recommended as a background for direct wall tile, it can still be used as a structural board when overlaid with a suitable tile backing board, particularly where installation of mechanical fixings is required e.g. for mesh backed natural stone where it is not possible to remove 75% or of the mesh backing.

Other changes to BS standards.

Previously in internal dry wall areas it was recommended that tile https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ should cover a minimum of 50% coverage spread evenly over the back of the tile. However, driven by necessity, with the increase in the size and types of tiles i.e. larger formats and thin ceramic panels, now available of the market, BS 5385-1: 2018 advises: “Tiles with a surface area of less than 0.1 m², but which weigh more per square meter than 70% of the background’s capacity to carry the weight, should be solidly bedded e.g. the maximum weight of tile that can be supported by Gypsum plaster = 20 kg; whereas 9 mm thick porcelain tiles, which weigh approximately 18 kg/m², weigh more than 70% of 20 kg (14 kg) therefore, they should be solidly bedded regardless of their size”

British tile Standards included within the scope of BS 5385-1: 2018 are large format ceramic tiles, ceramic panels i.e. tiles with a surface area >1m² (any edge length >1200 mm) and thin tiles

i.e. ceramic tiles and panels with a panel thickness of ≤ 5.5 mm. To reflect this, additional changes have also been made in the minimum recommended grout joint width, dependent on the tile/panel size, e.g. the minimum grout widths vary by tile facial area – an example as follows:
  • For tiles with a facial area of less than 0.1m² with no side > 600mm long, a minimum joint width of 2mm is required.
  • Tiles with a facial area 0.1m² to 1m² with no side>1200mm long, a minimum joint width of 3 mm is required.
And
  • Joints between ceramic panels should be increased pro-rata to panel size (e.g. for a 3m long ceramic panels the minimum required joint width between these panels is 5mm.
Not included in the scope of BS 5385-1: 2018 are:
  • Natural Stone Slabs i.e. stone which is more than 12mm thick,
  • Agglomerate stone,
  • Metal, plastic resin, mirror or glass tiles of a similar construction
Note from Admin: We have collated most of the threads regarding tile standards. Having one thread on the subject should help those out seeking advice regarding British Standards in Wall and Floor tile BS 5385
 
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OP
T

Time's Ran Out

Ask the client how to set the room out!
That’s why they are paying you - to do a professional job.
Clients away on holiday, that’s okay I’ll send him a photo of how it’s going to look - he’s going to be really confident in your ability.
What’s been done is sh*te and these chancers do our trade no favours.
 

acaciaguy

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I agree John. I advise clients on what I wil do and look best. However they are the ones that have to look at it forever. If they are happy i am

To avoid any conflation of posts. I agree John the work op posted is rubbish
 

Soso

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Hello all,

I have a query regarding the British standards. I note that they say the following below about notched towelling method. What is confusing me is the bit about 50% contact. Surely this is 50% while its being placed on the wall but that the twisting and sliding action should result in 100% coverage ? I have a builder trying to justify dot and dab based on this wording. Or trying to justify not covering the whole tile.

Also, can i also assume that 50% contact still means that 100% of the wall should be covered in https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/...the 50% is just the ribs sticking out of the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ from trowelling?

Second question is that i just need to be able to explain the difference between back buttering and dot and dab in layman terms for a judge. Can anyone help me ?

Notched trowelling method
Adhesives should be applied to the background with a trowel as a floated coat, the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ should be pressed into the surface, and combed through with a suitably designed notched trowel of the type recommended by the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ manufacturer: this gives a series of ribs into which the dry tiles should be pressed with a twisting or sliding action; this operation has to be carried out correctly to ensure that the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ wets the back of the tile and achieves an area of contact of at least 50%, spread evenly over the back of the tile.
Whatever type of trowel is used, it should apply the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/
in a manner such that the finished bed thickness is no greater than that recommended by the manufacturer and that maximum practical contact between tile and https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ is achieved.
The period of time during which tiles can be adequately bedded after spreading the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ is approximately 20 min but this varies according to the prevailing atmospheric conditions. It is important that more https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ should not be spread on the wall than can be covered with tiles within the open time.
NOTE 1 The amount of https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ used and the height of the ribs obtained are governed by the angle at which the trowel is held against the surface. The amount of contact is also dependent on the twisting or sliding of the tiles as they are pressed onto the ribs of https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/.
NOTE 2 It is good practice to remove a tile occasionally as fixing proceeds to check that adequate contact and wetting is being maintained with the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/.
 
OP
T

Tile Shop

BS5385 part 1, 2018
7.1.2 - Bedding materials:
blah blah....
Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique.

So important, they repeat it in 7.2.1.6 - Tile joints
Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique.

Think your 50% spread is also out of date:
6.2.3.1 - General
Tiles with a surface area of 0.1 m2, should be solidly bedded.
Tiles with a surface area of less than 0.1 m2, but which weigh more per square metre than 70% of the background's capacity to carry the weight, should be solidly bedded.

Your exact wording above from 7.2.1.5.1 Notched Trowelling method, "this operation has to be carried out correctly to ensure that the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ wets the back of the tile and achieves an area of contact of at least 50%, spread evenly over the back of the tile". - This sentence was removed in the last 2018 update.

So yeah, your builder is wrong! Sack him and get yourself someone who knows what they are doing.
 
OP
D

Dumbo

Have you a failure or are worried about future failure .
But as above if he is still working stop him ..
What is the value of your work if it several thousand it may be worth getting a tta report on the work.
 

Soso

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BS5385 part 1, 2018
7.1.2 - Bedding materials:
blah blah....
Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique.

So important, they repeat it in 7.2.1.6 - Tile joints
Tiles should not be fixed using the dot and dab technique.

Think your 50% spread is also out of date:
6.2.3.1 - General
Tiles with a surface area of 0.1 m2, should be solidly bedded.
Tiles with a surface area of less than 0.1 m2, but which weigh more per square metre than 70% of the background's capacity to carry the weight, should be solidly bedded.

Your exact wording above from 7.2.1.5.1 Notched Trowelling method, "this operation has to be carried out correctly to ensure that the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ wets the back of the tile and achieves an area of contact of at least 50%, spread evenly over the back of the tile". - This sentence was removed in the last 2018 update.

So yeah, your builder is wrong! Sack him and get yourself someone who knows what they are doing.

Believe it or not Paul, this builder is arguing that he did the work in May 2018 and therefore the June 2018 version of the text which came out in june itself doesn't apply and he wouldn't have known about it. So he is trying to warp what the sentence i the bsi 2009 version which is the 50% coverage....while happily ignoring the words (spread evenly on the back of the tile).

My assumption, and this is what i need help on a little is that this 50% is the ribs a notched trowel would create. The wall would be covered in https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ too. And when the tile is pushed into the ribs, it will spread and cover 100% of the tile ?
 

Tony_C

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Think of back buttering as you would butter toast, skimming a thin layer over it. Not dabbing 5 blobs

EDIT:

This isn't to replace serating the wall/floor. It's to help with better coverage also when setting the tile into the ribs. I should have added that
 

Soso

TF
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5
Think of back buttering as you would butter toast, skimming a thin layer over it. Not dabbing 5 blobs
OMG Tony, that is perfect !!! I hadn't even thought of it that way but that would make anyone understand !!! Thank you so so much
 

Soso

TF
Reaction score
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Have you a failure or are worried about future failure .
But as above if he is still working stop him ..
What is the value of your work if it several thousand it may be worth getting a tta report on the work.
Thanks jcrtiling. We are in court at the moment sadly. Been ongoing for a year and I think this person is likely to only stop all this if the TTA do a report - completely agree
 
OP
J

J Sid

BS 5385-1:2009
7.2.1.5 Application of https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ and tiles
7.2.1.5.1 Notched trowelling method For situations where dry conditions prevail after tile is completed, the notched trowelling method should be used. The final bed thickness of the cement-based https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ should not exceed 3 mm; if it is used at a thickness greater than this, excessive stresses might develop possibly resulting in cracking of the tiles and/or adhesion failure. The https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ should be applied to the surface as a floated coat with a trowel, pressing the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ into the surface, to give a bed
thickness of approximately 3 mm, which should then be combed through with a notched trowel of the type recommended by the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ manufacturer: this gives a series of ribs into which the dry tiles should be pressed with a twisting or sliding action; this operation has to be carried out correctly to ensure that the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ wets the back of the tile and achieves an area of contact of at least 50%, spread evenly over the back of the tile. Tiles should be fixed before surface drying of the ribbed https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ bed prevents the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ wetting the back of the tiles: the open time varies according to the prevailing atmospheric conditions and is usually about 20 min; it is important not to spread more https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ on the wall than can be covered with tiles within the open time of the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/.
7.2.1.5.2 Buttering method The buttering method can be used for occasional awkward tile positions, e.g. around openings and restricted areas where a notched trowel cannot be used; where this technique has to be adopted, the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ should be spread evenly over the whole of the back of each dry tile with a trowel. The bed thickness should be slightly greater than the final thickness required so that when each tile is pressed or tapped firmly into position the correct thickness is achieved. The thickness should not be greater than the maximum recommended by the manufacturer of the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/. Care should be taken to ensure that as far as possible no voids are left behind the tiles.
7.2.1.5.3 Notched trowelling and buttering method The notched trowelling and buttering method combines 7.2.1.5.1 and 7.2.1.5.2 and should be used for fixing large tiles (3.4) and tiles with ribbed, deep keyed or heavy buttoned back profiles. A thin coating of https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ buttered over the backs should fill the deep keys before placing the tiles in position on the combed https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ bed. There should be no significant increase in the bed thickness. NOTE This bedding method aims to achieve a solid bed
 
OP
T

Tile Shop

Sorry to bring this up late, but can we just clarify that this is a wall installation and not floor?

Also is it a wet or dry area?
 
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Soso

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BS 5385-1:2009
7.2.1.5 Application of https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ and tiles
7.2.1.5.1 Notched trowelling method For situations where dry conditions prevail after tile is completed, the notched trowelling method should be used. The final bed thickness of the cement-based https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ should not exceed 3 mm; if it is used at a thickness greater than this, excessive stresses might develop possibly resulting in cracking of the tiles and/or adhesion failure. The https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ should be applied to the surface as a floated coat with a trowel, pressing the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ into the surface, to give a bed
thickness of approximately 3 mm, which should then be combed through with a notched trowel of the type recommended by the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ manufacturer: this gives a series of ribs into which the dry tiles should be pressed with a twisting or sliding action; this operation has to be carried out correctly to ensure that the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ wets the back of the tile and achieves an area of contact of at least 50%, spread evenly over the back of the tile. Tiles should be fixed before surface drying of the ribbed https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ bed prevents the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ wetting the back of the tiles: the open time varies according to the prevailing atmospheric conditions and is usually about 20 min; it is important not to spread more https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ on the wall than can be covered with tiles within the open time of the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/.
7.2.1.5.2 Buttering method The buttering method can be used for occasional awkward tile positions, e.g. around openings and restricted areas where a notched trowel cannot be used; where this technique has to be adopted, the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ should be spread evenly over the whole of the back of each dry tile with a trowel. The bed thickness should be slightly greater than the final thickness required so that when each tile is pressed or tapped firmly into position the correct thickness is achieved. The thickness should not be greater than the maximum recommended by the manufacturer of the https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/. Care should be taken to ensure that as far as possible no voids are left behind the tiles.
7.2.1.5.3 Notched trowelling and buttering method The notched trowelling and buttering method combines 7.2.1.5.1 and 7.2.1.5.2 and should be used for fixing large tiles (3.4) and tiles with ribbed, deep keyed or heavy buttoned back profiles. A thin coating of https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ buttered over the backs should fill the deep keys before placing the tiles in position on the combed https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ bed. There should be no significant increase in the bed thickness. NOTE This bedding method aims to achieve a solid bed
Thank you Julian. I am hoping that the bit about "spread evenly over the back of the tile" and the fact that the entire wall needs to be covered in https://www.tilersforums.com/forums/tile-adhesive/ should be enough to bat this out. It's a shower area and there should be no voids and the areas should be solidly bedded which i believe part 4 of the standard also states. It's just that the 50% written here is mis-leading surely ?
 

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